[Music]
greetings friends and listeners
listeners and friends we're all friends
here this is Jason Charnock and welcome
to head above water a podcast about
filmmaking and mental health and what it
takes to find a little bit of peace and
happiness in our little independent nook
of the film industry on this episode
this is episode three we welcome back
Anna Kaiser Anna is the writer and
executive producer of she had it coming
a short film then I am pleased and
honored to be editing as well it'll be
coming at you early in 2020 so stay
tuned for news on that in this episode
we finish our conversation with Anna
talking about crowdfunding and the
stress and angst and anxiety that comes
with running your first ever
crowdfunding campaign we talked about
working with friends and then I have
been friends for over 10 years but this
is our first ever creative collaboration
so we talked about what it's like to
work with friends advantages and
disadvantages we talk about what it's
like to be supported by your significant
other we also talk about how we define
success in our careers in the
entertainment industry so I hope you
enjoyed part two of our conversation
with Anna don't forget to like follow
and subscribe on all your favorite
social media platforms we do have a lot
of fun exciting guests coming your way
over the next few weeks our next episode
after this we'll be featuring Polina
Lagoo D Ulrich writer director of mail
order monster family movie that was on
Showtime recently and is now on
streaming platforms across America and
we'll also be speaking with Numa Perri a
writer and director of Jezebel which
screened at South by Southwest this year
and I was very honored to do a Q&A for
it in Austin so stay tuned for those
episodes coming up and much much more
but until then please enjoy the rest of
our conversation with Anna Kaiser and
we'll see you on the other side
[Music]
I will say the bottom line even though I
don't think crowdfunding is for me again
um I talked about that some other time
sure because I think you know for me
like I think crowdfunding is the only
route I think I actually feel the
complete opposite of that okay like I
said I I never wanna especially my wife
will not allow us to show our own money
on something again but I also don't want
like listen if somebody comes and says I
want to invest $100,000 in your script
mm-hm
I'm not gonna say no but like now that
I'm in the dark world a little bit more
and I've seen like how fundraising is
there with grants and stuff like that
hey I don't want to owe anybody money
and be like just because like I already
like I just don't want to owe anybody
anything or feel like I'm promising
somebody something but like with an
investor like now people have their
hands in the till and now they'll you
know if somebody want wants creative
control there's somebody it's just it's
just stuff other stuff to deal with and
with with crowdfunding at least for me
whether or not I have an audience now or
people that are you know waiting to see
my next thing is kind of beside the
point you know for me it's like I don't
want to owe anybody anything I don't
want to put myself in harm's way
financially you know so let me let me
raise my mic there doesn't seem to be
any other avenues and then the dock
world especially where there aren't
investors usually it's all grant
foundations and I'm funders that like
the money's generally free and clear I
mean they'll audit your books-- and you
have to have a budget and all of that
fun stuff but it's like that's also like
getting into Harvard like like you're
like like a lot of people are like
fighting for a small sliver of a pie and
I mean that exists in crowdfunding too
but there's just more there's just a
wider swath of personalities options
with crowdfunding for people to put
their money in well the documentaries
where everyone's fighting for that
little slice of that pie okay so let me
let me let me rephrase I am NOT going to
do crowdfunding again if it means that
I'm gonna be tapping the same group of
people okay so if I can again going back
to this idea of success get to a place
where I have a larger audience where I
am NOT going back to the same people in
my life
asking them yet again hey can you
support me in this endeavor
then I would consider it but if I feel
pretty confident that I'm not gonna go
beyond that same community I'm not doing
it again because it's not on them to
continue to have to be obligated to keep
funding my things you know so I'm glad
you said it that way too
because yeah and I've spoken to Paige
about this before too when I did
literally last week tell her like I mean
I'm not close to having a crowdfunded
situation but like I told her just what
I told you that I think that this is how
I want to raise money for my movies and
she I'll be honest she got pissed
because a lot of the movie a lot of the
money for our movie came from people she
works with professionally mm-hmm and you
know her real estate community and
people that she depends on for her
business like these are the people that
give her jobs and not that they don't
mean anything to me obviously if they
mean something to her they mean
something to me but I didn't really see
it from that point of view mm-hmm and
she was very very adamant that she's
like I don't want to keep like I depend
on these people for my profession and my
jobs and I can't keep going back to
these same people and asking them for
money because she's in the real estate
raised were not people that are in the
arts right there I mean they consume the
arts like culture and stuff but they
they're not in the arts like we are so
like they see it as begging sure they
see it as well I'm giving you work I'm
giving you listings you don't you
where's your money going you don't have
the money to make the movie yours like
like they don't get self funding and how
hard it is to do that and they just
don't get the score so she doesn't want
to go back to that well of those same
people because it reflects poorly on her
to ask people for money and I had not
considered that well I find that really
interesting specifically in your
situation because one thing that I've
seen over the last several years upon
like the completion of your film and the
festival circuit is I actually feel like
you have done an amazing job of building
a community I'm assuming but I feel like
it's a pretty safe assumption well
beyond the fans yeah you wanna you know
I love all of you
yeah you got recognized my friend and so
I feel like that's kind of going back to
what I was saying I feel like you
actually are in that position right and
that's why I was you know that's why it
was so shocking to me hear you say you
wouldn't because like and why why pages
point of view didn't even occur to me
because like I have people that want to
see more stuff from me so like I have to
go back to those people because they're
ready to support me and I want to
deliver for them you know I obviously
want to expand my reach as well to other
people and new people and all of that
and that's certainly part of the plan
but like that core people like beyond
like my friends and family that are
gonna be there always anyway but there's
a good chunk of people that love the
movie and love what I did with it and
want to see more from me and want to
support me in those endeavors
so I'd almost be remiss not to go back
to that but you but then like I mean is
it is it not a possible scenario where
those are the people that you're
reaching out to and you're not reaching
out to the people and yeah yeah but but
well the the argument originally your
argument with my wife originally came
from you know I had said I want to do a
Kickstarter and she didn't like and this
is like I said I don't have anything on
tap right you know but she was like I'm
not gonna share it and I got you know
and I got got you know I mean I don't
take things personally but here's my
wife telling me like I read that as like
you don't support what I'm doing like
and it's her we argued about it and I
was like you don't support what I'm
doing you're not gonna share it to your
friends she's got listen besides the
people that she works with you know my
my wife is a very social person like she
got like 2,000 friends on Facebook you
know she and her whole network of
Realtors and all of that stuff like like
that's a huge untapped audience for
already tapped once but like you know
that's that that's a huge audience for
me to draw upon and I depend on that to
get the funds that I need to make stuff
and we actually had a very long
conversation she came some some good
points too cuz I said to him like if
you're not and I get I get under stood
why she didn't want to and I knew she
wasn't coming from a place of I don't
support what you're doing but it was
like if you don't want us to
spend our own money for me to make them
a movie which is a legitimate but you
also aren't willing to help me with my
outreach to other people then what am I
then what am i doing like like if you're
not like I'm damned if I'm I do I'm
damned if I don't like how do I do this
thing if if I can't spend our own money
which I don't want to do but you won't
help me expand my reach then now I'm
unlimited I'm in a place where like I
can only tap into this small segment of
you know you might you like you said you
don't want to because you don't want to
go back to the same well with friends
and family but I want to go back to the
well of these people that support me but
a and I can try my hardest to make it be
enough right but until I actually do
something it might not be enough it
probably won't be enough to actually do
justice to whatever I'm working on so
now I'm in a place of like well where do
I go from here and she came to that
understanding she was like you know and
I know like she will share it I know
yeah yeah when I do do something she's
not gonna be like no right like because
then that'll be a whole other thing but
I totally understand I didn't consider
it when I first brought it up with right
but like these are people that will make
value judgments like if you're asking me
for money
you must not have money but I'm giving
you work I'm giving listings what are
you yeah so like why are you not putting
your own money behind it like are you in
dire straits do you need money like I
don't know if I want to work with this
person anymore because they're clearly
financially irresponsible when none of
those things are true but that's the
fear that she has yeah you know I mean I
think that like it sounds like you guys
kind of went the route that I would go
myself in terms of like you sit down and
you have a conversation about it and
like you said like you're not you're not
like knocking on the door right now
you're not about to like launch a
Kickstarter but um I mean I think that
like kind of going back to what we were
talking about earlier in terms of having
like a support system having somebody in
your corner like absolutely more
important than money as making sure that
you guys both feel comfortable with the
choices that you're gonna make and come
to some kind of compromise if a
compromise needs to be happy and I'm
sure we will
so it's like okay maybe maybe the
compromise is like she shares it upon
launch yeah and then when you get to
some kind of milestone
yeah there's yeah then she shares you
know it's so like not to say like here's
what you guys should be we have a plenty
of time to figure exactly and I think
there's always a way to get to a
compromise you know and because Madeline
is yeah communications engine obviously
obviously she does support you yeah you
know and and but it is also very very
understandable and normal that as the
creative artist in the relationship I
immediately go to the the the the
worst-case scenario of it right and like
I said and when she finally explained it
like well this is why you know like yeah
I'll share it like right this is why
like I we can't go back to that well
right you know that said it hadn't even
occurred to me I just thought they're
like these people gave before they'll
give again what I will say is this is
that for anyone who wants to do
something of this nature no matter in
what regard it is if it's like a
crowdfunding or you know just being in
the business in a different way you know
it absolutely doesn't have to be a
partner but I do think that it's really
important to just like find your person
and it doesn't have to be 20 people or
100 people it could literally be one
person right but you to just have one
person who's like in your corner you
know to believe in you because there are
gonna be so many things that take you
away from that passion and that could be
other people's suggestions other people
not believing in you like there's just a
million things so you know my husband is
kind of that person in my corner it
sounds like your wife we we have their
corner well we have a very not
adversarial because that is way over
Stan's way overstating it I don't know
why that night we might edit that out I
don't know I it also depends on if she
listens to the show but no no my wife is
very very very supportive of what I do
but she has also seen the dark side of
it like she's not in the film business
but she knows she's knows a lot of
people that are she knows how stressful
it can be she you know she knows it can
grind you up and spit you out and she
supports me in my endeavors but in the
same vein like she's got her own stuff
that she's working on for herself that
she wants in her life and I mean we have
a good relationship and I support her
and what she's doing and she does
support me in what I'm doing but to be
completely honest it's and a lot of this
is my own this is one of the reasons I
want to do the show because you know I'm
an only child and a lot of it is like I
always wanted to just be the one guy
mm-hmm like I wanted my calling card to
be the one-man gang and you're right you
can't do it that way like it's not you
can start you can try but it's not
sustainable and it's not like hey if you
feel alone and you want to make a movie
and you don't have anyone just go and
get married like it's not the steps but
you know in the same vein I've always
been and it's something I'm working on
too because it's just I have to open
myself up to it because I I feel like I
put a lot of pressure on myself that I
need to be the one to succeed or fail on
my own merit hmm so I I I work the stuff
that I work on I kind of do it you know
and it's got a it's got its drawbacks
too because I don't have that
accountability it's not like you know
Paige doesn't come in and say hey did
you write the pages that you said you
were right you know when I do it no I
didn't you know like thank you now I'll
get to work she's not like that at all
yeah like I know she supports me I know
she wants my success but like that
motivation has to come from within
within and the the stress of that is
just like you know because I went
through a whole period over the past
year where it was just like I burned out
from getting over and you know how do I
do my own thing and I know she wants to
support me but even my own wife at some
point was like we need to move on to
something else and you know and that
that mean that's a whole thing about you
know social media and outreach and right
and you know building your audience and
building your community and I really
wanted to do that with getting over and
I still do I still have the intention
that but in some at some level it's just
like a lot of people get burnt out on
the projects that they're working on and
want to move on to the next but like it
was my family story right but like my
brain just kind of shut down about it so
like and without having that like did
you write your three pages today
sometimes that could be way more
detrimental than helpful because you
have to reassess every day and kind of
maybe not every day but like kind of see
where you're at at certain points you
know there's an ebb and flow to
everything and you poured your heart and
soul to this project for six years and
like you said it could not have been
more personal yeah and it took ten years
to just even get to the totally quick
starter yeah you know like I'm gonna do
something someday exactly and then
you've had a tremendous festival run and
you did build an amazing community I
mean I've seen it for myself that all
takes a lot of energy and emotional dose
and so I think that a little I don't
know there's a you know obviously oil
conversation about creatives not having
it as tough as people know destroy these
pain yeah I mean it's I think there's a
lot of like side eye towards artists
sometimes you know especially if it's
like I just got done doing this like
people think that all of it is just like
fun why should this like why would you
be tired out by this isn't roost well
you're just like making a movie is that
really that hard you know and I think
you it is okay and you you need to cut
yourself some slack yeah I've always
been very hard on myself about that kind
of stuff like I went months without
working and I just I would beat myself
up about it like I'm not working like I
have ideas but I just like I don't know
I just like and I actually well I had a
therapy session with my therapist a
couple months ago actually he had said
something to me that I hadn't even
really realized he was like you have a
fear of failure and you have a fear of
success because we did premiere at South
by Southwest and I was like I belong
here yeah and then we didn't get into
the next twenty festivals I don't belong
here at all I'm a piece of shit and then
I you know and and the whole you'll
you're gonna experience this for
yourself on the festival circuit like
you just get battered around the kampang
cotton ball you know in all different
directions and at some point I had to be
like well this is not making
happy I mean I I know I'm sounding
redundant and all this but like just the
the human part of it we're like you're
still human being in and honestly like
as far as like being in creatives
concerned I don't I I don't know we
could have a conversation about it but
like I don't know how many other
industries there are we're really it is
what you are doing is so aligned with
like how you feel about like your
personal Worth and value and and and you
know what it's literally something you
are creating so you are living with it
every day it's it's not a nine-to-five
job we're and that's something that like
oh maybe some people who come into the
industry are poorly prepared for is that
like you you don't ever just put it away
you know like it's always with you in
one degree and so you know there are
gonna be times where it's gonna be
helpful to have somebody from the
outside saying like hey you can do this
whatever you know but then also like
yeah sometimes you just need to breathe
so go do find a hobby
go click baseball cards go to the beach
fine fine I'm something that little
decompress you because you're never
gonna ever totally escape you right
always gonna be with you so you you have
to learn self-care I guess is what I'm
saying and to anybody else who thinks
that that's being self indulgent because
you're already in this like really
fortunate position to be making a movie
mhm
you know you don't know you know and and
like honestly like why don't you come to
the other side and try it and see how
easy it is you know it's not well I'm
glad you brought it up in that way too
because a lot of the conversation these
days too is like how can I make
filmmaking a sustainable career right
and I see a lot of people talking about
that it is not even to point out and
then any one person about it you know
cuz that's that's really the goal we
want to have a sustainable career but
like any other business any other
profession that you're in like if you
want to be a teacher you go to school to
be a teacher you get a job as a teacher
and then you teach for 20 yes maybe you
get your masters really how to plumb and
then you go because I'm really clear
there's a clear career path and and and
and filmmaking and the creative arts and
and you know this this thing that we're
in is is the only industry that I know
of where it's like you can be doing it
for years and still wonder like how do
we make this a sustainable career and
I've already had that's why I don't kind
of connect with a lot of that stuff
cause like I've had a 20 year career in
this business I've had you know 20 very
good successful years you know doing
post-production and like maybe this
movie that I made was my first feature
and my first directorial debut and all
of that stuff but like I've had my
career and I'm proud of it I wanted to
be going it's not like I don't want it
you know to continue but it's like I
think there there's a trend right now
with you know and I think social media
in and of itself Jack Twitter I'm
looking at you like there's this
one-size-fits-all like if you're gonna
have a sustainable career as a filmmaker
and it needs to be directing mm-hmm you
know nobody talks about you know other
stuff like how do I have it like for me
like and I was describing it to another
friend earlier is this like some people
have a singular vision and they go down
one road and that's the road that gets
them to happiness or to career success
or whatever they define that that that's
the goal that they want for me like I I
see it more as a freeway yeah you know
like I got four four lanes six different
lanes that I can go down and I can still
get to happen you know and yeah I mean
straight analogy kind of related to that
I was at an event a couple nights ago
and just one woman specifically we were
talking about film distribution and you
know they were talking about how
everybody wants to be on Netflix I just
had this conversation with my last guest
yeah conversation well she had a really
astute point she was saying like what
does it matter if you're on Netflix if
nobody watches it right and so she's you
tell people I'm on Netflix but it's a
hollow thing to say because you know
nobody's connect isn't the point of this
is that you want people to connect with
your material you don't you you want
people to see it that wasn't the goal
right and so
I think what a lot of people need to do
is like reevaluate what success means
for them
mm-hm and what failure means failure
means like some people like I said the
last guess that I had on the show last
time you know they they are still on the
circuit now but they have distribution
and they were getting rejected from
festivals as we are all gonna be
rejected from 90% of the festivals we
apply to and but they already had
distribution and they're like but every
time they got a rejection from a Film
Festival they feel like worthless yeah
but some other people are like but you
got distribution you're a success and
they're like I don't feel that way you
know so it's like you have to before you
even get into this like and it can
change like you said it can change as
you grow and develop as an artist and a
person and just all of that but like
before you go into this you gotta decide
for yourself what is success what is
failure you know like for me success is
completing something yeah you know some
people like the the success comes from
laurels on their poster when the success
comes from selling it to a distributor
or a success comes from being recognized
or success comes from a big fat paycheck
listen and that that's that's always
been a level of success for me yeah you
know like I I wanted that thing I still
kind of want that thing you know so but
in the same vein like some people if
distributions not that important to you
and you just want a balls on your
picture just putting it on YouTube is
success and that comes from you finished
your thing and people don't you know the
general public doesn't think about it
cuz thousands of movies come out every
year
so they think it's easy or they think
you know whatever but just finishing the
thing yes success no and whatever comes
from that like I said if nobody had
bought the picture if we didn't get into
any festivals I'm putting that thing on
YouTube and okay maybe no one knows it
and it's there like you said with
Netflix like who like if a tree falls in
the forest and no one's there to watch
your movie right you know did you really
work on it but for me success was like I
especially you know my picture being so
personal like if this needs to be
I finished my my goal for success of my
movie was not even for my own success it
was like I want people to know who my
father is because my father was a drug
addict that's what my movies about is
this drug addiction and you know
addiction is its own topic for another
day and another show but like junkies
are called junkies and I called addicts
and nobody gets behind the human side of
it very often I wanted to make a picture
that did and my success comes from
people know who my dad is now mhm and
that is just an amazing feeling
that's almost bringing me to tears but
I'll get nasal when I get the stuff so
I'm not gonna but that was that was my
measure of success that like people know
who my dad is now and so like anything
that comes after that is really quite
all gravy so like everybody needs to
decide for themselves that's not only
what success is
but what failure is and realize that
there's you know any number of
directions you can go down and have a
sustainable career you don't have to be
hired to direct a Nike commercial right
to be a success I mean if that's what
you want go for it but don't feel like
you're a failure if it doesn't happen
because those are all external forces
that you don't have a control over in
this town you're not a failure if you
don't end up being one of the Russo
brothers everybody has a place in the
truth of like really cold hard truth is
that the industry is made up like a
pyramid and there's only a select few
individuals that are at the very top but
that doesn't mean that all the people
below them are failures right there's no
triangle without you know the 95% of
people beneath that pinnacle ie I would
never tell someone to not keep pursuing
what makes them happy and what fulfills
them creatively however most people the
it's kind of sounds silly to even have
to say it but like the vast majority of
people they are never going to be Steven
Spielberg right doesn't mean they're not
even as talented I can't tell you how
many times when I used to work in
commercial casting and 99.99% of the
people in there are not gonna book it
but they are talented is right it is not
and I mean look it's it's another cliche
but I do think it's true the people who
end up having some level of success
hover you want to define that
our there's always gonna have to be at
the talent and there's gonna have to be
the strong work ethic but also it's just
tenacity right a lot of people and it's
a completely valid choice decide at some
point that they just don't want this
lifestyle anymore
doesn't mean your peoples not mean
you're about that way too much like oh
if you leave the business or if you
leave LA in general and you go back to
what you were doing like that doesn't
mean like you tried you gave it a go you
know and and and put whatever one life
do what you want to do with it and you
can't ignore the real constraints of
being in this industry LA for one is it
a incredibly expensive town so if for
instance you want to also have a family
well if you decide you want to have a
family that the family has to come first
you know and then try to make a move and
then turn yourself in something with
many children exactly like like we have
the freedom without children the freedom
do you have kids and and you want to
make pictures that comes first it's like
oh boy yeah no you know you have
decisions exactly and also sometimes
it's always valid and fair and nothing
to be ashamed of to say like my
interests have changed right I tried out
this one thing and I'm kind of tapped
out on it you know maybe now I do want
to teach or maybe I want to be a
therapist or I want to do you know
whatever I've had plenty of people
friends who have made those choices yes
and actually they seem amazingly happy
and fulfilled by it so I've got friends
that have gone back for their master's
degree I've read stories about producers
that you know the grind of just the
stress of producing like push them into
being a you know going into therapy and
being a therapist for other artists
specifically because they can speak the
same language on some level and like if
that's what like me it doesn't mean
anything other than this is what I want
to do that makes me happy right yep and
so like coming back to that idea of like
what is success I mean I think first of
all keep pursuing what you want to
pursue if you are really dead set on
being like the second coming of Steven
Spielberg I guess keep trying to work
towards that but you still need to pay
your bills you still need to eat you
still need to do all these things and so
like you are still going to have to
other avenues to do that and kind of
actually going back to your you know
analogy about the highway lanes I think
a great way of kind of balancing that
idea of success and also being able to
like have a roof over your head is like
diversify you know and so what I mean by
that is you know you can be a director
and do your shorts or webseries that's
another way of people you know getting
their name out there and getting their
work out there but also it might mean
that you are you know working in a
production house and you're helping to
rent out equipment and you might be like
you have to find lots but you're still
meeting people yeah you know that's
you're still in the mix you know if
you're not a failure because you have to
work 40 hours a week doing something
that's not directing you know so it
might even mean that you're working in
an entirely different industry you know
like I know but like again might be a
cliche but I know plenty of people who
are supporting themselves by being a
lyft driver or by making delivery you
know whatever that for a little bit of
horse and and that is come that's a
completely valid way of supporting
yourself and making sure that you can
still be in the city if this is where
you think you need to be for your career
and maybe it's also gonna help fund your
next project I know so people I think
need to kind of not be so myopic or
define those terms by other people's
definitions are being just so extreme in
terms of like we'll fight don't hit this
mark right you know and and kind of
going back to way early in the
conversation when we were talking about
people saying like just put it all on
your credit card or whatever you know
don't have a plan B you know okay that's
great if that's what worked for you I
think that it's you know from the
exception that proves the rule
you know it's it's the same thing where
people talk about will Bill Gates
dropped out of cop you know like okay
but so yeah I I just think that people
need to maybe go a little bit easier on
themselves because you can still find
like okay you talked about how for you
what defines success was you finishing
that project for me for this particular
project I was over the moon that we
actually shot something okay you know
like I you already nothing anybody says
yeah I'm not gonna say no one can touch
me like me you know feeling like I've
been a so human but that was the first
time since college which people were
mandated to help me with my you know
whatever but this was the first time
we're like someone came to me and said
hey I believe in this story I think we
could do something with it like I didn't
actually generate that idea on my own
that was Skylar coming to me and our you
know our producer Kurd Kanazawa who who
said hey this has legs to it like we can
do something with this and and it kind
of went from that and then you know
seven months later to experience a
weekend where we had close to 30 people
between crew and cast and other people
who helped down in other ways all work
towards this one goal that was amazing
yeah you know and so like I'm so
appreciative itself yeah you know and
and that's not to say like we are gonna
100% finish this film and like get it
out there and you know well we are going
to 100 I want to scream film and you
know you mentioned earlier about how
like you can't control success
especially in terms of like the film
festivals are good so I'm kind of going
into it you know like I will prepare
myself for many many rejections and I've
already gotten that because as a
screenwriter
you know I really do contests and
festivals that have that component and
I've gotten far more rejections that
I've gotten like oh you can move forward
in a certain regard and in you know
again like it's it's all about looking
at well am I really a failure only
because I made it as a quarterfinalist
you know in this particular competition
and 1/800 people that submitted and
you're in the top eight right right or
even like you know this year at Austin
so last year she had a coming was a
second round here that essentially
equates to the top twenty percent I had
a different script a TV pilot again
become a second rounder this year and
that's fantastic but of course the human
and
all of us like it's always kind of the
grass is greener I was like what am I
gonna be a semifinalist and so but hey I
should be happy that script got
recognized for what it is you know but
most of us don't yeah I think it's just
an it just seems to be a natural
instinct to be self-deprecating about it
because if you your own horn too much
then your egoistic 'el or something like
that like then you like you have to beat
yours again goes back to artis pain like
you need to like punish yourself for
your own success
you know if it's gonna be worth a damn
but it can be it can be a different
thing than that it could absolutely be I
think that's a really antiquated idea
that you have to be suffering to be an
effective or successful artist for a hot
second I dated someone who likes said
those very words it's like oh no I'm out
like I'm not I'm not here living this
life to punish myself so I can make good
art like if I have to punish myself to
make good art I will go do something
else I want to do this and it's yet it's
not my bones and it's in my guts but in
the same vein like I don't want to be
unhappy I don't want to be depressed
just so I can win a screenwriting
contest or just so what that like what
stardom is on the horizon because I beat
the shit out of myself over something
then great like that doesn't go away
when you find stardom it doesn't go away
when you find success you know when
someone else's terms like you're always
gonna do that to yourself so like at
least kind of understand it and be like
well I'm gonna be this kind of person
anyway but I don't have to like again it
also goes a little bit with like with
the stakes like the stakes don't have to
always be so high you know like cuz
you're going to drive yourself insane
and I think okay so we're talking about
like what does success mean I think that
that's a big component I think also
though you do have to be honest with
yourself because you I'll backtrack a
little bit when I met my now husband you
know I was really clear with him like
here's what I aspired towards I don't
exactly know how I'm going to get there
but like this is and of course people
are it's okay to change your mind but
also if you
hide that part of yourself from maybe
yourself and other people then you're
also digging a hole for yourself because
I was always gonna have this be a part
of my life and if my husband wasn't
supportive of that it wasn't gonna work
out right and so I think there's also a
balance in terms of like sure if it's
getting a place for like your mental
health is suffering take yourself out or
take a break
they don't take yourself out don't ya
mean like like remove yourself from
whatever that bad situation is for at
least a certain period of time so you
can um those two things literally
convening the same thing can be traced
but at the same time like I think again
most people I'm hoping and go into this
it's because it's certainly not gonna be
for the money for most of us it's for
the love of it it's for the connection
with others it's about telling stories
it's about creating something beautiful
you know whatever I marry worse on
yourself yeah and and so like that's why
I think a lot of people get into it and
that's that's something to not be
ashamed of so I think there's balance
between like being honest with those
around you and saying this is part of
who I am and I'm not ashamed of it but
also understanding that like it you
can't sacrifice yourself for the art if
that makes any sense
oh it does like you say you you want to
still new self care and all that you
wanna you you you want to be happy you
want to be at least you know saying I
don't like using the term sane and
insane because it doesn't you know like
clinically insane and stuff like that
but you you just make movies there's
always something I'm gonna do like again
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put myself
in harm's way to do this if it's going
to be something that's going to end up
being detrimental then it's just it's
not worth it it's just not worth it I
want to bring up something you mentioned
earlier - um it ties back into both like
what success how you define success but
also you know you talked about how
people keep talking about like find your
tribe find your tribe for me in part
what what is success is like I get to
work with you right like I know I guess
we're in that I think this is the tribe
if I usually say it one more time like
now if you like hey you know
like this is awesome I've known you now
for over 10 years in a long time and yes
we have worked together but this is the
first time in a like purely creative
collaborative yeah and like that is so
cool
absolutely you know and and that's
something I absolutely aspire for so
like I and I hear that a lot I think
that that is a healthy way to approach
it that way maybe you're not making
millions of dollars doing this and maybe
you can't be doing it all the time
because you have a job and you have
other responsibilities but if you can
you know surround yourself with people
who just are cool people and they they
are like-minded and and they understand
the constraints that we all have and and
yeah you could still move forward and
make something cool and fun and like
that's success yeah you know so but that
also has a dark side too cuz I've heard
I mean I have my own story other like I
hear from producers all the time and I
was I want to work with my friends I
want to make things with my friends but
making a film is also a very very
stressful thing especially when you're
indie and you have other
responsibilities that day job or
whatever the case may be there are you
know dark sides there you know there are
drawbacks to it
yep you know like we have not really
dove into you know anything too much
just yet and we will soon but there will
be times and it is not a lie like like
there will be times that you'll want to
go down one road sure and I'll want to
go down another road and you know we and
I take things very like even when I joke
with my friends like I take things
personally you know like my friends were
like get over getting over already I'm
just like like like we're supposed to be
supporting you what are you giving me
shit for and even though I know they're
fucking with me like I would just take
things personal til I get like we're
gonna get to a place where like you want
to do this and I'm gonna want to you
know do something else with it and we're
gonna butt heads creatively there will
be a time where we're gonna be like yeah
that's exactly what I wanted to do yeah
you know and so not just with us
personally between you and me but like
there will be other times that like your
friendships will be tested it's should I
buy this it is true I mean yeah there
there's a lot of different ways to look
at it I mean one thing that I mean
that's not to scare you and say like
don't work with friends but that's why
people continue to work with the same
people once they find your people so
that's why I I do admittedly love this
director so that's why I keep bringing
up Steven Spielberg but like that's why
John Williams is go-to guy for composing
the I Scorsese and Thelma school exactly
like get it absolutely children and that
also works with like the actors in there
so I have the benefit of having known
you for over ten years
um I think that you are a phenomenal
filmmaker even externally of like
knowing who you are as a person but I'll
be really honest I came into this like
you're right we're gonna have times when
we have differing opinions but also like
I know who you are as a person I know
the integrity that you have I know you
know like I know these aspects about you
right so I feel really really good about
our collaboration and sure you're not
going to always have that but like you
do eventually get more astute about
these things right you know but it's
it's not 100 percent of the time you
know like definitely there have been
people that have come in and out of my
life whereas like no that's not gonna be
a person I'm gonna clapping me with I
don't think you need to make apologies
for that always be professional always
you know be tactful and I mean sometimes
yeah things are gonna go to a dark place
and you then learn that lesson right um
and you before those lessons into
practice on the next thing exactly and
you learn about people and you learn you
know you just learning about yourself
also you sure cuz I'm not gonna say like
I said I have my own story with that but
like I completely recognize the mistakes
I made along the way right this was my
first feature i am a stubborn guy like I
had like even though I have four lanes
that I can go down those are my lanes
you know and I stick to my guns a lot
and and and that can be very grating on
some people so I my limitations in that
way continually work on it always want
to be a better professional I want to be
a better partner to people and and and
always you know have my ears open to
like other people's points of view and
you know right now especially like I'm
in this really interesting headspace
where I just want as many person is
stubborn as I am I want as many
perspectives as awesome because it
informs the work
mm-hm and the work you know becomes more
the more perspectives you have from
working with different people you know
of course you'll find the same people to
work with over the years as things go on
but like it just makes the work better
when you understand the world at large a
little more and understand that other
people's experiences other people's
journeys are not necessarily your own
but that doesn't make them wrong it just
makes a it's just their path to take
yeah and and no judgments and let's see
if we can make some magic together
absolutely you know 100 percent agree I
really hope you guys enjoyed our
conversation with Anna Kaiser thanks a
lot for tuning in let me just remind you
guys that we're gonna have some
wonderful exciting guests coming your
way on the next few episodes of head
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[Music]
you