[Music]
greetings friends welcome to head above
water a podcast about filmmaking and
mental health and happiness and wellness
and self-care and all that fun stuff
while we try to maintain a career here
in the entertainment industry on today's
episode we talked to Paulina lugu do
wreck the writer director of mail order
monster mail order monster is a feature
film that was on Showtime and is also
available online now on iTunes and
Amazon and many other different places
and will have links to all the places
that you can watch the film in our show
notes today I also don't want to spend
too much time on it because I do want to
jump into our conversation with paulina
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head above water podcast calm please
leave a rating or a review on iTunes or
Apple podcasts I'd love to hear from you
you love to hear what you think about
the show and I was actually thinking
about now that we're in episode 4 I've
always wanted these conversations to be
therapy sessions for not only our guests
but for myself as well so I'd love to
hear from you I'm thinking about maybe
changing the name from mental health
maybe the Wellness or happiness or
something like that just so it doesn't
sound so clinical so get in touch let me
know what you think of the name of the
the show and we should tweak it or make
any changes as always our music is
provided by the wonderfully talented
Jason David Wyatt please check out his
soundcloud at Jason David White he has
wonderful music there he was the
composer for my film and he can compose
music for your film
and without further ado I just want to
jump into our conversation with Pauline
ollague T Ulrich and we talked about
some wonderful topics today we talked
about the effects of social media we
talked about some real serious stuff
eating disorders working with your
significant other I love talking to
couples who work together in the
industry I love to talk to them about
their work with each other and we also
talked about shooting on actual real
live super 16 millimeter films so that's
also a fun little filmmaking
conversation that we have with Pauline
as well so without further ado episode 4
enjoy our conversation with paulina
degree all right
holy NOLA Goudie auric hello how are you
you have you definitely have the name
for emotion pictures like that name just
just jumps out at you like I know you
don't have the old Rick on a lot of the
credits yet because a lot of your stuff
was before you got married but like
that's a that is a name for Hollywood
right there thank you I was so concerned
my maiden name was so Italian I know
you've got all the bases let me ask so
let me ask the right so you guys just
got married you just got married to your
husband Cooper right and Cooper is your
he's your DP on all of your stuff
everything okay
where did where did you meet Cooper so
funny enough Cooper and I both went to
Chapman University okay did not know
each other had many mutual friends we
met two months after college actually
onset of a movie that Cooper and his dad
were producing okay how many years ago
was this oh five years okay each other
for a while great yeah yeah and so I was
assisting one of the actors on a fluke
because his older roommate Cooper's old
roommate was supposed to be the
assistant to one of the actors the night
before his roommate could like book
something or just wasn't able to show up
the next day but knew I was in town in
LA I'd moved you know right after
college and he's like hey if you're free
tomorrow would you mind covering for me
on this set you know just this one of
the name actors I was like yeah that
sounds amazing yeah that's the best yeah
what a great time did that meet Cooper
and then honestly the rest is history a
couple months after being on set we
started dating and after that we started
creating work together and just been
inseparable ever since
that's awesome so did he ask you how did
he ask you out yes well could we always
joke because Cooper first in very Cooper
fashion asked me to be his assistant we
always laugh at because really he's my
assistant agree with that yeah he just
he wanted to keep it so clerical at
first I don't you should go get drinks
and talking about be my assistant I know
it's a different day and age I don't
know if you can see stuff like that
I know yes cut to two years later
there's no way you would have said that
but you know he after that usually we
all a bunch of the people after the set
that day like we all went and got drinks
together and had food and then he's like
we talked about sushi i love sushi
sometime i was like okay so he's a
smooth operator smooth operator
awesome awesome yeah I was watching
through some of the lakes so I went to
your website just taking you know as
part of like my research for all this I
know we've spoken before and you know
I've talked about mail-order monster and
we'll talk about that in a second too
but I wanted to like go Bing you know
just go back into you know your Canon of
stuff and you know I was looking at your
short films and just seeing his name all
over the place that was really
interested because it's a it's really an
interest to me because my wife's a real
estate agent she does a lot of video
work I do my I do video for her you know
when I'm not working on my own projects
and you know she's not in the business
so I'm like I'm super attuned to and
keyed into you know I've had you know
married couples on the on the show
already I'm talking about their
experiences so it's always been really
interesting to me to hear how people
married people or you know people who
were together work together and get
along you know onset and offset and
stuff like that so it's really
interesting to me just do you know hear
those origin stories and stuff like that
especially with the for us too people
are always so concerned because it's
like oh my gosh the director and the DP
especially we were just dating right
yeah they're always concerned like oh
how how do they work together you know
cuz Cooper people who know is we have
very strong personalities sure you know
so they're like oh my gosh this will be
like The Clash of the Titans thing
happens you know and there have been a
couple times where we've like over the
years had to get we've had to find our
groove and find our communication but
we're just both such passionate people
with what we do
well you're Italian you said I'm very
Italian and he's just obsessed I
wouldn't be the director I am if it
weren't for Cooper and we both like
especially we work so good together now
because you know you grow together with
your people but when you're not just
like working with the people that you've
constantly worked with forever and
building a shorthand over time and a
workflow when you're living with that
person and so intimately connected with
that person it kind of expedites that
process sure so
do you guys have you guys fought on set
before or like are gone for sure we did
yeah oh absolutely
but that's much more my fault all right
well let's talk about that then so like
tell me about like when you guys know
this when you know you're directing a
picture you're always you know your DP
has something in mind when married or
not you know there's always going to be
that kind of stuff but I'm so like when
you guys are you know have a little bit
of friction on set how do you guys you
know handle that without having it bleed
into you know the rest of production
completely much better at the snacks we
always learn from our mistakes but it
really comes down to whenever we fought
on set it's because we've had time
against us mm-hmm and what we're trying
to achieve we just cannot do in that
amount of time
right and we're both trying to figure
out a solution and unwilling to
compromise on certain aspects of our
solutions if that makes sense
interesting we're wanting to be like I
need to get this this way absolutely no
matter what and me at the time producing
and directing so knowing where the
money's coming from the time knowing
being like we just absolutely can't and
fighting in that regard also I had to
learn that just because you're the
director and producer doesn't mean you
can just whack that around all the time
to get what you want right you know and
that was that took a lot of like hard
lessons I would say a lot took a couple
hard lessons of really looking back and
being quite embarrassed and how I
reacted with things and granted I think
you know we're always a little bit more
hard on ourselves when we look back then
things actually were taken but I will
say whenever we did fight we did it very
privately we'll be like you and me and
you know it over here right and we tried
to keep it as private as possible we
used to like tease each other a lot more
on set like be a lot more picky about
things but in a TZ way and then we've
kind of stopped that because it just I
think is something where we can do it
with ourselves but I when you're also
not just the heads of a film with you
know as each other you're also he's got
a crew that he has to lead you know and
I never want to under you know one
exactly you know and make it so it was
one of those things where we had to
learn a respect level in a very
interesting way from the beginning of
our relationship
- so it's it's that's where it also kind
of got messy in the beginning because we
moved so fast in our relationship we
were living together after only six
months of dating you know so it was like
everything we just really just dove
right into everything we're working
together we're living together and it's
like but at the same time we're learning
who each other who we both are and so
you really learn about those things when
you make mistakes and when you're put in
situations where you're not always
acting your best so what's great now is
we've come so far and gotten past that
but in the beginning I think it was one
of those situations where it's just like
when you're put up against an obstacle
sometimes you're not always gonna act
your best if you haven't prepared ahead
of time mentally on how you're going to
react so yeah I find that I find that so
interesting was so as was there any you
know cuz you said you were you yet you
had to learn basically you know how to
commute and communicate with him
publicly it was there ever it was there
a specific instance where you're like oh
shit I went too far or oh shit he went
too far and you know is there anything
is there anything that that you know
that you feel comfortable talking about
it's funny I say oh yes because we
there's there's been a few it sounds
like you have to pick and choose yeah it
just might people who know me again it's
like my personality is that like I can
be very I have like you know the show
deep sure okay that's like my people boy
if she speaks I mean I've seen parts of
that yeah I'm like you know super but
obviously I'm familiar with his
character like she just can cut people
so quickly you know so quickly and it's
almost like she doesn't even realize
she's doing it it's like a second nature
thing where she will default to this
kind of fairly aggressive somewhat below
the belt
you know waves speaking because she
knows that's gonna get the reaction that
she needs the fastest and for her it's
all about moving quickly she's the vice
president right you know eventually
think she becomes the president and
whatnot but for me and how I grew up
especially like what a single dad and
you know running his business all alone
and always being around that like that's
what I grew up with you know always
having thick skin you're Italian you
know just say people you know brush it
off don't be made of paper you know
so sometimes I can ask like I would ask
for things from Cooper in a way where
I'm like we don't have time I don't care
about your feelings I'll just do it
those yet those aren't really if he's
anything like me that's it's not good
there was another time where it was more
on him because we couldn't get this
effing Ronan for some reasons Ronan that
we got was like messed up and we
couldn't get it balanced with the red
and we really needed to just get this
shoot we only had one day to shoot this
thing in this one location I'm like we
need to get it we need to move on and I
was like very aware of you know at this
point of how I can maybe not react the
best you know especially with Cooper cuz
I take him for granted because we you
know we're dating at the time right
sometimes you don't speak to you speak
to people a little kinder than you do
sometimes like your family and your
loved ones and stuff so that's also
another thing but he was got varied he
was at his worst at that point and then
he apologized later we always apologize
that's kind of the biggest things we
always say and yeah we've learned we've
learned a lot from it which I am so
thankful for because I we always say
that look we went through all this stuff
that you probably should go through
before you get married because it really
tests who you are and tests your
relationship and has you go through all
the crap so that way it's like all that
you know like going through therapy
before you get married and everything
too so yeah yeah being on a film set can
certainly be like yeah just like
heightened every in yeah yeah I mean
you're you're really gonna see the other
person at their very worst so if you can
survive that and then like the rest of
its probably
marriage is not easy but you know at
least a little bit easier than being on
set luckily like with me and my wife you
know because most of the work that I do
with her is it's not like I don't have a
crew like a lot like if I have to shoot
a house or a property or something like
I get to do it on my own like she's
almost never there you know a lot of
what what we deal with you know me and
my wife are also very very stubborn
people it sounds like you guys are very
similar too and you know it's almost
good hearing that from you because like
when you're on set you know you can push
the boundaries so much and then learn
what your boundaries are and other
but my wife and I because we don't have
that extra dimension you know she sticks
to her guns you know she knows her real
estate and she sticks to her guns and
I'm like but we need to shoot something
like this way and all you know everybody
uses a gimbal and everybody you you know
uses wide-angle lenses and let's try to
figure out something different she's
like not just I need it to be like this
and I need it to be like I'm like I love
you very much but we should probably you
know take a break because there's nobody
you like said like there's no there's no
going into another room and having a
private conversation away from the crew
there's just it's just it's just all
no-holds-barred so so like I said it's
it's it's a deep interest to me how
people do that sort of thing yeah I
think as long as you always choose to
take responsibility and learn from it
and grow from it and know that it's
always gonna be about the wheat like
Cooper and I trust each other with
everything no matter what so that's why
we're able to grow and get better but
because you don't see that a lot I
really don't think you see that at least
the growth you know that that you're
you're talking about you don't you know
people usually you know I've met plenty
of people in this town I don't think
it's limited to you know the film
industry or Hollywood this town or
anything like that it's it's
relationship and there's gonna be
conflict but yeah when you're thrown
into the fire of a film set and all of
that like you know it's all a learning
experience so I'm glad to hear that you
guys are figuring out how to how to work
together without you know letting it you
know interrupt your your private well
let me ask you this and so you had said
that you were raised by a single dad so
I want to kind of talk about your movie
a little bit mail-order monster which I
had seen awhile ago when we first met
actually let me add before we dive into
that really so you guys have you have
not been on Twitter as much as you guys
were at least that you were you know
when we first connected as this was this
intentional
I mean it's Twitter so I mean like
everybody needs a goddamn break I know
it's funny I am I guess more recently
like probably a little bit before we got
married and then
during the honeymoon and whatnot you
know you get so isolated in the best of
ways and it really kind of concentrates
what truly matters and I think it's very
inch it's very easy in this industry to
feel lost and to feel confused because
you feel like you need to be doing so
many things because everyone's doing
these things and see that very
successful person there who's always on
Twitter and that person over there is
always on Instagram and that person over
there who's you know making all this
YouTube stuff but also writing a series
and it can get very overwhelming and
then then you just lose yourself right
oh what happens to be all the time right
yeah you lose yourself and you lose the
fact that it's like wait why am i trying
to chase something that I've never been
really good at sustaining at
consistently because it's not authentic
to Who I am
when this is a career that's based on
one thing and one thing only and this
just being the very best at telling
stories right right so you can be the
biggest you know the base best followers
in the world on Twitter and have like
the biggest account but unless you're
really good at telling stories yorkers
only really gonna go so far and it kind
of has to come down to a somewhat like
philosophical existential conversation
with yourself of what do I want out of
this career for me you know what does it
mean to get up every day and work at it
do I enjoy it what does that mean like
for me I love writing I write for myself
so much you know what's funny is and I
love working like truly working like
going to a job and making money like
gives me so much fulfillment in life
anytime I've been not in that state
which we can get into like when I first
started out and you know it's making
money producing and then just lost so
much money with irresponsible like
financial intelligence and just broke
the beginning of the year you know
because of it then it was like you lose
your sense of self-confidence and what
you want to do with your life so with
Twitter I'm not really on it that much I
will go on it every now and then if
there's a specific thing I'm looking for
but yeah it's it hasn't affected me at
all believe it or not since I've kind of
stayed more focused and concentrated on
just my routine everyday um I've
actually received job offers for
directing and I'm going Wow Wow
like I knew like if you just that's a
one-to-one correlation right there
whatever get get get work yes
I mean I don't want to say I don't want
to be the one to like write an article
with that headline yeah that's a hard
fast rule well we do know Twitter can
end work for ya we're trying to launch
careers here that is a direct
correlation yeah I think so that's I
mean not to get too off-topic but it
really just said I think from a you like
that thing of the universe and also
yourself and your own work that you're
putting and kind of meeting together
that's kind of what's been happening a
little bit more recently so was it was
it one thing in particularly I was like
I'm just on this thing too much or like
cuz you said you had like a conversation
with yourself where you got to the point
where you realized you had tone it back
a little bit like was there something
specific that happened or was it like a
more natural like just like you find
yourself on the socials more and more
and more comparing and you you're not in
your head in the right way enough yeah I
mean that's always been my problem with
it too what's tough because you don't
realize like you know people like I'll
just create something well to come up
with like something that's meaningful or
to have that sense of don't make you
creative yeah right well what is that
movie and is it gonna be worth it to
have that sense of you know creativity
and imagination it takes a lot of space
in your head right and we take that
space for granted a lot of times and I
read a really great book recently my dad
gave me called stillness is the key by
Ryan holiday and anyone knows anything
about me they know I'm obsessed with
Ryan holiday with like ego is the enemy
and obstacles the way and still this is
the keys his most recent book and it's
been pretty impactful for sure that's
awesome you'll have to send me links on
those so I will absolutely put him in
the thing and then I can read them
myself cuz I'm just looking to just you
know it's one of the reasons why I want
to do the show is just absorb as many
different points of view you know as
possible and how people how fellow
filmmakers are experiencing the world
and how it informs their work and stuff
like that because especially with
Twitter it's so funny like you say
because and I think we talked about this
too when we had lunch you know way back
when is like I go on there I like to see
what other people are doing I use it for
mainly
sports well originally mainly sports but
then you know after my movie got picked
up and I was kind of more in the mix I
wanted to see what other people were
doing but yeah it does have this
cumulative effect of I think the kids
call it FOMO where you know where you're
just everyone's putting out the stuff
that they're they're not putting out
hey I woke up this morning and I didn't
want to get out of bed so I stayed in
bed I know some people that don't like
that but for the most part it's you know
like hey I'm shooting this movie and hey
I'm shooting this commercial and hey I'm
at this Ben festival and hey just go
make your movie and it's just like well
I feel like shit when I can't get out of
bed and now these people are you know
making me feel like you know and and
it's so funny to like that's definitely
not anyone's intention you know entirely
not when especially I've been in
situations Believe It or Not where I've
seen what has been written by a certain
person on you know on social media or
whatever and then I see that person a
few days later and I learn about the
actual project and I'm like I would have
never posted it because it wouldn't have
been worth the post but that's their way
of creating relevance you know there's
another great book please link to it as
well well send you all these in an email
as you called so good they can't ignore
you by Cal Newport and it's taken from
the quote by Steve Martin when he gave
that really like very famous speech
where he talks about being so good that
they can't ignore you and for anyone
want who wants to be the best in their
field period whatever field that is it
is a very impactful book and he does not
sugarcoat anything and he pretty much
gets down to the brass tacks of like the
only way you will see success this is if
you if you you know essentially give or
have a rare and valuable talent or skill
or whatever that you can provide to the
marketplace if you're not providing
anything rare and valuable which we're
in an industry where that is entirely
subjective all the time right of course
however we're also in an industry where
we're taught to imitate alright I was
gonna say you say rare but rare has such
a specific meaning I guess it's kind of
interesting because everything's another
one of those until the new thing comes
around that everyone rejected and then
now every like kind of
stranger things the whole story of they
were rejected 47 times or something
ridiculous until they were picked up you
know and then you've got the brie
Larson's of the world where no one
really knew much about brie Larson a
little bit like she was kind of did some
kid stuff and then she did you know
short term 12 and things like that but
it wasn't until room that she really
became relevant right and I knew her on
the league even like a couple of years
before that yeah exactly and it's it's
you know everyone and then everyone's at
OA brie Larson type well brie Larson
type never existed before you know so
it's just that thing of it's rare until
it's not rare anything you just have to
focus on really cutting out the noise
and just finding your unique voice
because that is what is rare and
valuable that's the whole point of the
whole thing mm-hmm is getting up every
day you know he's a great example of you
know a great TV writer I forget his last
name Alex something and the amount of
work that that person put in true work
of writing every single day the amount
of scripts it's grueling but the reward
that we're all working towards has to
equate to the saint that huge amount of
work it was worth it if it didn't have
that amount of work and I think we often
might why I kind of got away from social
media and stuff is because the amount of
work I was putting in was not equated to
what I was wanting to get out because I
was losing so much time and energy on
social media that it could have been
spending on things that are gonna
actually get me somewhere and sometimes
it's even easily I mean it's it's it's
you know for me especially like it's so
easy you know working out of home having
a home office and trying to write and
edit and do stuff here I mean I would
just sometimes just rather you know see
what's going on online then I know put
forth my my own effort in my own stuff
and like you said I mean you see people
hey I'm shooting my move like yeah
you're shooting your movie today but we
don't see like the eight to ten months
or the year that you put into writing it
out repro and all of that and you just
get the sense of like look at how easy
it comes for everyone else and then I
never want to go back to my other screen
where I have you know where I have my
stuff open because like why am i
bothering writing if it's come so easy
to everybody else and it's so hard for
me it's supposed to be the thing about
right
to learn was I always thought I wasn't
that good at it because it hurt like it
was very uncomfortable
going on sue me I'm going on Pinterest
like was a pillow for my brain and then
when I was reading this book it was like
no it should feel very uncomfortable
like there really isn't a point where it
isn't uncomfortable until you get become
a master right which takes years and
years and years but when you're
constantly pushing your brain and like
pushing to that you're focused so you
can focus longer and focus more it's
like going to the gym right you're crazy
it's a muscle it's a muscle you have to
yeah that hurt so that was something
where I was like now that I know that
that's normal
yeah I will lock the dialog my dog in
the closet right now so he's he's
barking I can't hear I've gone in the
closet to record before and Cooper's
been like oh it was so funny hearing the
dogs I'm like really because I was yeah
I want it like I said now that I have
all this nice equipment like I want to
like you know build out like a whole
thing in might do the whole thing yeah
nice
what's it called like weird soundproofed
yeah like the whole like I have you know
when I used to work in in promos like we
used to have like like I talk I do
sessions with the video guys and I would
direct the video sessions and they'd be
like it sounds like they're in like a
professional studio I'm like where are
you right now and they're like I'm just
like in my closet you know I've had
video guys even like I'm in the bathroom
at Starbucks so like let's get this
going alright listen if it's quiet you
know and you can give it to me let's do
it yeah yeah sorry about that
no it's better now this should be this
should be fine that's all right we'll
see ya I mean maybe we'll edit it out
maybe we'll leave it in I don't know it
would be it would be an interview with
me dog did not interrupt itself yes it's
an official it's an official interview
but okay so to get back what's backtrack
a little bit so you
we were talking originally before
Twitter about over
mail-order monster yeah growing up with
a single dad as well yeah so I wanted so
and actually what you were saying to
about
you know getting rid of Twitter and
stuff so you can focus on you know your
work things like that what I so I
watched male autumn like I said I
watched it after we first met way back
when and then I just watched it again
just last night just to myself with
everything so you might have another
four cents coming on iTunes so put that
into the till for the next one but I and
I had not watched some of your short
stuff and like I said I went to your
website and I watch some of your short
stuff so you had mentioned that you have
a single dad so obviously your personal
life has really informed your work weird
with the movie can you talk a little bit
about because I also remember you had
said that you know so you get you didn't
write the original script you you
acquired the original script and then
you know explain yes so like did you
write a fresh draft or did you work for
the original screenwriter like how did
that all that come about well first I
would say after watching mail-order
monster into my shorts you must be like
very confused because everyone's usually
very confused after watching the shorts
and being like wait then you made a
family movie this because like yeah
obviously well I know you a little bit I
mean we're not you know we're friends
but you know I don't know a lot about
you you know that's one of the reasons
why I wanted to have you on the show and
learn more about you know like said your
origin story and your origin story with
Cooper and all of that but whenever I
watch stuff like this you know when I'm
consuming it you know to enjoy it and
stuff and I also with like yelling at
the screen too because no one's here in
the house with me today and I'm just
like like like Monster is oh my god I
don't wanna give any spoilers or
anything but it was just like I'm
getting into it again but when I watch
all of it together yeah they're very
very different movies but they're
obviously and this is what I you know
what I was getting to is your personal
life your life experiences inform your
work so deeply I feel that it really you
know has me very very very interested in
in your process and how it affects you
you know some of your shorts are very
very personal and you know mail or
monster being a little bit more of a
family movie you can see the personal
stuff in there
but obviously you kind of have to gloss
it over with some stuff but can you talk
a little bit about you know and you can
start with me Laura monster if you want
to go into the other stuff like how your
personal experiences
informed your work on the script that
you wrote from the idea that you
acquired yeah how you adapted that to
your life experiences and and how you
know how you deal it because it's also a
very personal thing when you're putting
your life on screen even if it's you
know through a fictional character you
know when you're working through your
stuff when you're writing and when
you're on set working and you're seeing
other people re-enacting things that
came from your mind that's got to be a
pretty intense experience as well so
yeah
mail order monster acquired the
essentially acquired the title and like
a few of the character names and whatnot
in a bit and a bit of the family
storyline like story structure but I
pretty much revamped it and entirely to
be a story that is very like loosely
based on my life like my biological
mother didn't is did not pass away
whereas in you know I'm not giving
anything away in the movie since it
happens in the very beginning but that's
what happens in the film but my dad
raised me pretty much as a single dad
almost my entire life even and then my
and then my stepmom came in when I was
like a preteen so 13 years old just a
tad bit older than Sam is in the movie
she's 12 and I wanted to tell a movie or
a story that was what I related to which
I didn't have you know a stepmonster I
didn't have no I didn't have like the
evil stepmom or anything which I know
plenty of people have had those
experiences for sure and I've spoken to
them before but I didn't have that but
at the same time we didn't we weren't
the Brady Bunch
right right it wasn't just oh yeah you
know I have a stepmom and all is happy
like there was a ton of pain there there
was a lot of good and bad from every
single person involved my dad myself my
brother my stepmom and I really just
wanted to tell a story that created a
conversation where the kid was heard
mm-hmm because there's a lot of very
grey stories or movies made about
blended families that are told more from
the adults point of view yeah or they're
the stories that are more
black-and-white where it's like the evil
stepmom that's about the kid and there
was nothing that really kind of fit that
gap of wait what about
it's point of view when they're not
always totally correct but they're not
totally wrong either and they're just
misunderstood
they're just not ready yet and that's
yeah that's what I was really I was like
I wanted to say to him like listen
you're your dad's making some good
points here me totally get where you're
coming from yeah so much of that dad's
got some good points too oh yeah and
it's funny because it's like that's the
kind of the point of the films like
there's really not a bad person in it
there's no real evil character and
whether that was a detriment to the
movie or not you know I just wanted to
paint the story of what was real which
is hey some of the people we love the
most in our lives which for me at the
time were my parents were like the worst
people in the world to me at certain
moments you caused me to do it because
yeah because just your what you're going
through and your perspective and your
you know you're feeling protective over
you know your mom that you do have and
things like that so even though that
person's never around so it's just kind
of this interesting thing where I wanted
to tell a story that was deeply personal
but around but told in a way that could
be that we all very much know that's not
personal it's very familiar it's it's
almost so familiar it feels cliche but
it was a truly personal story and what's
great is it's really resonated with a
lot of people that have been in similar
shoes as myself and to some people
they're like oh it's just a fun family
movie or seen that a million times and
it was kind of nice to put something out
there like that granted it's the third
film I put out there that's pretty
personal to me but the one that had the
most stakes involved in to be able to
put it out there and get reactions that
go all across the board
it kind of was it's very freeing you
know you just surrender to it you kind
of can't really do it for the I don't
even know how to really describe it but
yeah it's a yeah it's an interesting
feeling you know I my movie is a very
autobiographical about me father in his
drug addiction and all that and it's so
you know weird isn't even the word but
like when you put your life on the
screen whether again whether it be
through a documentary like me or you
know a narrative where you can put the
things that you want to say and talk
about like behind you know fictional
characters there's still you know the
themes and stuff are still there you
know and n2b
the again as someone who's not really
written a script before never really
written like a feature script you know
to be able to hide stuff behind and
unless you know I'm not saying that
you're hiding any means but just you
know to be able to work out your shit
through you know characters that you're
creating it's it's an interesting
feeling - I've had I'll put it this way
like I've had multiple people be like
wow you're so brave for putting that up
there and and I was just like I didn't
really like think about it that way like
ya know like you've also been through
the whole process - cuz I think by the
time someone sees it by the time it's
released you've gone through all that
whole process yeah you know I I had
spent you know I wasn't the editor on it
but you know I did all the finishing was
the online editor I delivered all the
materials to the distributor and all the
film festivals and stuff and like people
like you're so brave like how could you
do that and I just tell people like what
for the last two years like well first
of all I've watched all of it like eight
million times so like there's already a
disconnect there but like I I spent the
last you know two years making sure it
was all technically correct that like
after a while like I wasn't even
listening to the crap anymore I just
wanted to make sure the laws were all
being hey hey totally you know so it's
not even like a bravery thing like it is
in the beginning but at some point like
the profession takes over and at some
point it's like the content doesn't
belong to you anymore like you get to a
certain point where like you know
whether it be shooting or when you're in
post in editorial like at some point
like I'm just putting together a picture
here like I don't even see it as my life
maybe that was just what I did to
protect myself from it I mean it took me
almost 15 years just to watch my
original father's video tapes so like
after a while like you know I could just
put up that wall and just be like well
I'm putting this thing together now like
the content you know like on lighting a
movie that's about my family is the same
process that I do when I online a movie
for someone else so I'm just doing my
job at that point and not really
thinking about like wow I'm being really
brave here by like telling ya you know
something you know I think it depends on
also to on what story you're telling
like I don't think how we react to
different stories we tell about our
lives or ourselves or whether it's you
know not necessarily something that
we've written that's autobiographical or
not or a documentary like we're gonna
react to it all differently and I think
that's what kind of keeps it fresh right
or what makes this profession so cool is
the fact that it is a new experience
regardless of the project like this is
how was one of the most vulnerable
positions I'd put mine in myself in as
like a filmmaker because it was my first
thing and it's like you know very
intense storytelling and that was more
like Oh scary if I go I made something
else he like what happens where the one
that was probably for me personally the
most vulnerable to put out there was
Holly's girl because of when we'd have
to talk about it at screenings and like
I wanted to ask you about that but I was
afraid I'd I mean this is the great
filmmaking no I I think that kind of you
don't get to have that privilege anymore
when you're a filmmaker in my opinion is
like that's kind of what you you do
that's kind of my whole thing is like
what's what I love about it about making
stuff that's personal is I'll be the one
to not to like be naked about it if that
makes sense like I can talk about it
because why not like I've already put it
on screen I put it like Joe Schmo can
watch it that's my story there you go
but I have no like I'm an open book if
that makes sense there's nothing that
I'm attached to you that I'm ashamed of
yeah like if we were ashamed of it we
wouldn't be making pictures about it no
and then I absolutely would make a movie
about it just to figure out why I'm
ashamed about it and then not be ashamed
about it anymore it's it's so many at
that point you know yeah I think shame
is something that we're all very scared
of and but also fully interested in is
entangled in so many things but yes so
that for me it's just kind of like I I
like telling deeply personal stories but
funny enough because of mail order
monster was able to get opportunities
where I'm telling other people's story
and then the challenge of creating in
your own thoughts your own feelings and
your own life's experiences that are
personal and how do you infuse that
sense of groundedness into a story
that's not your own and that's also its
own challenge that I don't think I would
have been able to do if I hadn't gone so
deeply within myself and put it out
there
so it's kind of just you have to do it
super interest so so when you meet Allah
is what was it again Holly's girl
Holly's girl right so it's and it's on
Vimeo I think I was watching it on Vimeo
yep
so it's about eating disorders yes and
so when when you made that tell me a
little bit about the process then of
working through that kind of stuff like
did you still right let me ask you this
because I don't want to be too personal
but I also did you still have an eating
disorder while you were making the
picture uh kind of not really like I
like to think that at the time at the
time I would say I was at a very
difficult part of the recovery process
okay right so for me I had an eating
disorder for about seven years
it liked to kind of rear its head every
now and then during stressful times in
my life but I had it pretty bad for
seven years and caused so many issues
within my family and all these things I
what I got better and then got I kind of
relapsed and then by the time Holly's
girl came around I was at a point where
I had just actually a lot of health
problems you know even though we had to
go to doctors and stuff because I had so
many health problems ramifications 2016
okay so just a compression exactly man
it feels like a lifetime ago um I know
right and so I was in the process of
doing like really healing so like having
to eat differently having to exercise
differently I looked different to myself
you know I'd put on a lot more weight
than I ever had before
and so I felt very very vulnerable but
at the same time I was the most
committed I'd ever been to getting
better but I knew I was never going back
since
so then yeah and then I mean Holly's
girl believe it or not because someone
else had brought me the script wasn't
even something that you had originally I
they'd given me a 12 page script when a
good friend of mine who also dealt with
disordered eating and she was like I
want to make this movie and it's kind of
got this whole thing and she gave me a
12 page script and I read it and I
ripped off the first like nine pages and
I took the last two or three and I was
like okay so here's the movie
right because this is how is only a page
and a half of a script even though it's
eleven and a half minutes or something
like that right so I ended up rewriting
it with her and with Molly and then I
directed it fully on that one and and it
was very personal for sure but it was
cool because what I really like working
with other writers it's difficult for me
to just write on my own mm-hmm but also
to it was great because it's something
that every everyone can kind of relate
we wanted to tell a story about not
necessarily just eating disorders but
just an abusive relationship because
that's really what it is it's an abusive
relationship within yourself and so it
kind of goes back to that thing of when
you try and make something very deeply
personal I try to find like the
universal clothing I can put it in that
makes it approachable sometimes it's
difficult to make a story about like
addiction or eating disorders or
something where it's like oh I don't
have that so I'm gonna look at that
thing as like oh that's so sad for that
person or the other instead of thinking
about like well how do I have it an
abusive relationship within myself so
did you think that so when you were in
production on it did you feel you know
and maybe this kind of change depending
on your mood of the day did you feel
that like making it was good like so
you'd be on set and you would see what
was going on and you were you just like
this feels really good that I'm seeing
this that I'm moving I'm using this as
an opportunity to get past it or were
you more or were there up you know times
when you were like wow I can't even I'm
directing this thing but I can't watch
it because it's too it's too much it's
too close it's too personal I just want
to go and do that thing that like I'm
not supposed to be doing I'm gonna go
have something to eat yeah I know or
something like like it's good and bad
like you know was there like a yin and
yang to it like how did you deal with
that in the moment you know I feel like
when I'm directing on set - I'm kind of
like removed from that point because
I've done so much of the prep work and
I'm just so focused on like creating you
just do the piece then like I'm like
let's go all the way you know but what I
did find was really cool is how everyone
else was on set because they knew you
know and then so people would want to
talk to me about what people they knew
in their lives or someone brought their
girl
friend to set who would struggled you
know they're like they asked me if they
could I was like absolutely so I think
for me it was a surreal situation
because I had kind of made gotten past
it from that point of view that you're
talking about mm-hmm and then when I
brought it to festivals and when it was
finally done and I was able to put it
out there and speak to people about it
that's when things kind of came up in a
really interesting way I'd never
throughout the process I never felt like
triggered by it by any means but I've
never really been triggered by things in
that way and it's funny because we would
reach out to different groups and
whatnot and it was denied sometimes
because they thought it would be
triggering mmm and it's just because I
didn't I didn't my brain didn't work in
that fashion yeah you were just you know
like I was saying like when I was
working on getting over at some point
you're just doing your job it's content
and all that but if you you know I mean
obviously there's gonna be times where
you know you especially is the director
then when I do narrative stuff and I
haven't done narrative in a while now
but when I used to do shorts like I
always when I work with an actor I
always want to be surprised I think I
heard Robert Altman say that once I'm
not surprised if my actors don't
surprise me I don't believe it so like
when I'm working with actors I want to
like pay attention to it in that way and
kind of be in that but yeah on the other
hand you're still like you're looking
you're making sure your sound levels are
fine you're making sure your picture is
fine you're too busy working with Cooper
making sure he's got his focus you're
just you're just doing the job I have to
put up I don't even like using the term
wall because that's like well I think an
expectation I feel like if I had put the
expectation on myself that like I wanted
this to be something for me cathartic ly
writing or whatever it was or maybe even
just sometimes it's something yet having
that expectation of like you're you want
your actors to surprise you I think you
end up missing out you know I think
expectations are just like the killers
of everything on set so unless my only
expectation is I will make my day that's
the only doing I didn't want to put that
expectation on it by any means because
it would just make it way too
the stakes are too high yeah the stakes
are too high it's too high and it's like
it's not that's not what we're here for
we're here to make a movie you know
we're here to just like on the day we're
here to shoot write scripts like that
we're here to shoot what we've put out
there like it's not about me
having some sort of like philosophical
rail you know revelation about stuff or
having some sort of emotional catharsis
like that's not what I'm there for I'm
sad we keep it very professional and
it's like if that happens I mean great
but at the same time I'd be concerned
I'm taking too long and cutting into my
face like all right you guys have lunch
we're breaking for lunch I'm just gonna
go cry in the corner and I will just
somebody bring me a sandwich and yeah
it's really interesting to hear you say
that because the people I honestly you
know cuz this is like my fourth episode
that I'm recording and I hope that this
goes you know a long time and I love
talking to people and hearing their
experiences I think other filmmakers
that'll listen to this will get that
point of view you know cuz we are all
just trying to do the work and
everybody's personal life informs their
work you know whether you're directing
something that someone else wrote or
something that you wrote yourself like
you're you bring to the table your life
and your life experiences so like that's
just the natural order of things but I
don't think the general public I don't
even like to say general public cause
it's like oh you're not we all watch
movies and I don't think people
generally get that when we're on set
when we're shooting something like there
is a disconnect we have X number of
pages to get through X number setups to
get through and like I gotta do that I
don't have I I don't have time I don't
wallow in it I'll wallow when the day is
over and I get home I'll wallow all
night long you know but when the day is
going and I got people on set that are
looking to me looking to you you know
for direction and for leadership there's
just no time for that
there's just ain't nobody got time for
that yeah I feel like actually think
about it this is how definitely messed
with me the most especially because I
was acting in it when I got off set for
that like I just I had to kind of take a
few and then being on mail-order monster
like it was so funny I think it's
because you're seen at the level of
actors I was working with and such a
privilege to like there were times where
charisma and Josh would do a scene or
charisma to the scene yeah I think Chris
was doing a scene with Josh and I cried
like I found myself crying oh and
throughout the entire scene with Madison
like breaking everything in the oh yeah
that was intense alright that's one take
you know that whole things one take
and I'm there with her and we're both
crying together and it was like one of
the most incredible things because it's
like I always whenever I think about
it's like I'm right back there it was
just so cool because that was a time
where I was very surprised where I could
you that was a time where oh I didn't
like you're listening to something and
you're in it and you're like oh crap I
didn't realize I felt something about
this you know it was one of those oh
crap I've been through the seen a
million times through the script but now
that I'm hearing it like this and seeing
it like this it was that one did
surprise me but I think I was only able
to be surprised because I had no
expectation of being separate right were
her parents on set when you guys were
shooting that yeah yes they loved they
were the best people alright so they
weren't like hey you're fucking with my
kid not at all we'd always ask Madison
we'd be like how do you cry on him you
know I have no idea she would come up
with the craziest thing she'd be like I
just pictured my dog getting stabbed
like what we were all just like let's
not go into that guillotine ever again
yeah don't tell everybody your process
yeah there we don't need it like the
technique is yours I know she is the
best family though and they were they're
the best people I was very very lucky
outstanding that's great that's great
well let me answer let let me and then
then we'll kind of wrap it up a little
bit so tell me so tell me what you're
working on right now first of all yeah
because you're not on Twitter so I have
no idea
so I after me a loner monster and after
a few things I then developed a producer
boot camp which is essentially yeah we
talked about and I have a podcast for
that that I'm not consistent on it all
but I'm kind of like allowing the
inconsistency to work in my favor where
I'm just like hey now I'm here again
with a guest or by myself and that just
essentially is everything that I wish I
had when I was making my movie taking
you from like script to release little
guides and that was a big thing and then
I wrote another script to the co-writer
a feature and the we were initially
gonna make this script very different we
were initially making it to be a micro
budget feature and then based on to some
like reactions we got we it's probably
the most care I've put into any script
based on some reactions we got we've
been able to kind of like get in front
of a management company and now an
agency and we're going to try and go
about it that route I was also hired to
feature so I spent one time writing we
finished that so that's now on its way
to do whatever it does hopefully it does
something great because then I'll have a
nice check in the mail if not whatever a
great learning experience are always
good bait as it was but and then uh yeah
recently hired and shot a short film on
super 16 which was probably the best
experience I've ever had that was I have
to say it I've been usually one of those
you know skeptics of like oh people get
so up in arms about film but you can
make this look like film and all this
stuff and I'm listening I'm an old fart
I learned how to cut on flatbeds as I
told you one yeah yeah I haven't worked
with films since I was actually thinking
about it after you told me since 2001 I
haven't actually had anything to do with
film but yeah there's just something
about loading the camera and there's
just something about I mean it's a we
shot on super 16 which I have to say
like compared to what I we did a lot of
research beforehand as well and we've
always been interested Cooper and I both
we're like we put it out in the universe
after mail-order monster like we want to
shoot something on 16 not 35 yeah I'd
start with fuel rockets we had so many
different projects that almost happened
with super 16 and they fell through and
then this one happened and it just
worked out beautifully
but being like with 35 and people may
have their arguments with this I just I
truly think with 35 you almost cannot
tell sometimes like if it's it's more
that is for me more about the process in
the act where with super spit 16
specifically it just does something that
you just cannot
I think replicate when you look at the
images we've got some stuff we you know
and we didn't just have super 16 of
course cuz it's me and I can't do
anything easily but it's like we've got
super 16 and then we're shooting like
everything from sunset dusk to Twilight
all in one continuous scene it's all in
the same day and then we're doing
Steadicam water so pepper actually loved
him there was no friction on that oh no
actually I will say we worked at our
absolute best day leading up to it he
almost like had as well did he load the
camera no
so I'm gonna be a full camera team so he
actually wasn't operating as we did so
much Steadicam and this is one of the
first times I've worked with Cooper not
as an operator my first time as a
director working with Steadicam not as a
producer so I have to say we worked at
our best on this because we finally had
a full team again that everyone on that
team was at such a high level and was so
good at what they do that Cooper and I
always butt heads when we're wearing way
too many hats right and the fact that he
could just focus on shooting and I could
just focus on directing and that's what
we had to do that day everything was
like the best when you can delegate yeah
I mean ya know if they're doing and you
know that they know what they're doing
yeah we're not managers yeah we really
are not micro managers we'd love to
delegate but we we love to lead a team
and we've done every single job in the
book and just been like a two-man band
before and all the things so we
understand what goes into all of it and
it was just a beautiful experience it's
gonna be difficult - we've got like a
roll of film in our fridge right now
that was left over I'm like gonna be
difficult not to shoot something again
on 16 but it is an expensive process I
will say very happy that I did not
produce this or put money into the
budget it is not cheap no yeah it is not
cheap so it's like definitely a
privilege when you can do it I think it
has to be it was perfect for the project
thankfully it was something that was one
of the reasons why I got hired is
because I suggested it for the project
and it's something that he was really
interested in doing and so it's not
something that I would ever be like Oh
from now and I'm only shooting super 16
because that's just not feasible and
it's not necessarily the right look so
it's just cool to work with another tool
you know we have our trusty Alexa that
we love her very much our classic we
will always use her you know when we can
but it was a pretty phenomenal
experience and then since then I've just
been yeah in this cool situation where
this other company commercial production
company fiction Pictures asked me to
kind of be a director on their roster
for stuff so they're really supportive
and like trying to get me out there for
things and you know I'm just got my head
down and just working like writing every
day not even ever even putting
expectation on my writing sometimes it's
just like okay something may or may not
ever happen with the scripts but I'm
writing it purely for the process of
writing
lead to something else and submitting to
different fellowships and stuff like
that not being afraid to do that I think
is really important and to keep putting
yourself out there and that's really
just what I've been focusing on it I
feel a lot better now whether it's done
anything huge for my career I don't
think so like compared to what my
Twitter days but I at the end of the day
like I feel more involved and active
within my life and my creative career
whereas before I felt a little bit more
helpless even though the parameters
haven't changed too much that's great
so do you feel actually and then then
we'll kind of wrap it up on this so do
you feel like so how much so you get
you're married now and that's a whole
you know wonderful thing to have happen
are you and you feel like your careers
you know finally in like City can come
you know come and go in waves but you
feel like everything is going have you
and Cooper talked about any family
planning like what are your thoughts
about all of that family planning I
don't know we talk about all the things
well we're even working a lot like I've
been working bartending at a restaurant
to save up as much money as possible
Cooper's thankfully been doing great
with film and photography where he
hasn't had to do that right now but this
is another thing that I've always been
interested in you know with couples
working together is you have to have you
know be on the same page financially and
all that was a problem and then the
beginning of this year like I said
before I mean we were dead broke coming
out of New Year's and you know Cooper
started driving for a lift and I worked
at a restaurant dad wrestle uber for a
little bit yeah I'd eat you know did
well with that and then when we went on
our honeymoon the new law passed
California with the whole ride share
that kind of messed everything already
thankfully serendipitously all of a
sudden all these film jobs are happening
with him he's bringing more money with
that and like I am working all the time
at my restaurant but also working in
these other areas with my life and so
we've been able to save up enough money
where we've got like almost 50k in the
bank just of ourselves
going from couldn't even had $500 to my
name is shoe here so the amount that
we've saved is like astronomical and
we've worked really really hard because
we're looking to get our own place
that's like for me I'm wanting to do a
duplex like an investment property
because I can't I can't
like rent or you know mortgage where I'm
not getting like able to build equity or
have some sort of cash flow over the
over the long term we should know your
wife's in real estate well you can talk
about that you know I I really got into
learning about real estate and so that's
something that I'm like just from a more
of not like I'm going to become a real
estate ready just like if you're gonna
learn my house you want to know what's
going on exactly so we've been looking
to do that I mean I definitely both
definitely want to have kids and not
wait too long with that either so we're
working doing so well right now and
sometimes it's not even up to you
exactly I'm thinking I mean for us we've
we definitely think like within the next
two years hopefully in the next two we'd
probably want to start having kids I
mean that's time what I have like an
army of I mean you gotta put them to
work you know you'll have actors you'll
have PA I know all the time we're always
like man if only there was a baby to be
in this like you know free labor so
don't worry about it don't worry where
the baby came from just for now it's one
day at a time
awesome awesome well let me ask you one
last question before I let you go are
you happy with where you are in life
right now the most I'm very happy I mean
you're right where you want to be exact
I'm right where I'm supposed to be it's
great so that's kind of what I had to
let go of is where I want to be and
where I'm supposed to be are two very
different things and where I want to be
is only gonna I just focus on that
I get very depressed I I suffered with a
little bit of depression too and so but
that's always what I focused on like I'm
not where I want to be in kind of the
minute I've been able to surrender and
just relax and breathe and appreciate
exact appreciate gratitude and know I'm
exactly where I'm supposed to be I get
very happy that's great because like I
said I just I don't here and it's got
nothing to do with the film business
here either like whenever I talk to
friends or whatever like oh you know how
other wife and kids and how is this
something like like are you happy like
it's really you know and that's that's
the reason that's the real reason why I
wanted to do this show because
I'm a work in progress getting happy oh
yeah it's all you know different days
bring different moods but so much of the
conversation in what we do is art being
pain and like art needs to be you know
like I mean even it goes even as deep as
the Scorsese Marvel thing you know like
there's no risk art needs to be you know
you need to slit your wrists and bleed
on to the film you know if it's gonna be
true art and all that and I just I don't
believe in it you know I mean to some
extent but not that there's enough of it
that just comes yet with the process
that it's really important to me that
the people I talk to the people that I
associate with the people that I want to
work with some day even if you're not
happy as much as you know a lot of
comedies but Richard Lewis or whoever
liked their comedies built on like how
sad they are no Larry David or anything
like like that like it's funny to watch
but like it's not the kind of life I
want to live I don't want to live you
know in this realm of negativity just so
I can make a movie or tell stories or
things like that so it's really
important to me to talk to filmmakers
and creators and artists and just people
in general when it's not for the show
you know like yeah I just want people to
be happy and I want I want people to be
where they want to be in their lives and
and if they're not to just know that
they're working towards that I love that
I think it's important for us to you
know like we said kind of funny it's
come full circle but you know you and I
met on Twitter very like everyone always
posting about the end result of what
they're doing exactly and really it's
just it all comes down to process and
perspective and just surrendering to it
all I mean this is such a great podcast
I love it I think it's such a great
purpose for it being out there and I
think you know your outlook is great and
we all struggle with like maintaining
that but we don't have to keep that you
know positive outlook every single day I
think like I said moods you know come
and go but as long as we're all working
you know like that's why I feel like
it's head above water you know like
we're filming like we've got we're
juggling enough balls as it is that I
think people tend to forget that it's
really about they're too focused on like
I need to have a sustainable career as a
director or I'm nothing you know or you
know I need to do it this
way or it's not worth it or I need to
don't you know it's just like for me
interesting way to live a life I've
already had i've already had a career in
this business like don't direct another
movie you know I'd like to but if I
don't it'll be okay I've done you know
I've had a good career and I've worked
with some great people and and I will
continue to do so right now at this
stage in my life in my mid-40s as I move
on to the next phase I just I want to be
in a positive situation and I want to do
things that make me happy and I don't
wanna and I don't think the art you know
I don't think the work needs to suffer
for that and I just want people out
there to know that it doesn't you don't
need to suffer for that and and and your
happiness comes first and foremost
beyond anything else polina Lagoo D
Ulrich it was a pleasure pleasure
speaking with you again I will have to
have you on again sometime to talk about
you know the producer boot camp and all
that stuff and the podcast and your work
with that and tell Cooper he's got to
show up next time a lot of questions for
him it's funny too and I'll you know I
don't want to go too long because you
know you got to get on with your day but
I find it funny when I do speak to
couples I am and it's the same in my
household to I find the woman is the one
that's a little more forward-facing
you know like the female directors are
all about talking about it and sometimes
the guys like I mean it's not like
anyone scared to talk but you know
listen my voice is gonna sound horrible
on this sounds like they like don't
worry about it like you're just shooting
shit here for listens to wants to listen
to it they're welcome to listen to it
for this law so all right Pauline Oleg
ooty Ulrich thank you again and you have
a wonderful day and I'll talk to you
soon awesome you have a good one
[Music]
and there you have it wow that was a
real great real intense fun interesting
conversation with Paulina I'm glad you
guys checked out the show glad to have
you guys here again please leave us a
review or a rating on iTunes or Apple
podcasts or wherever podcasts are found
I'd love to hear from you as we move
into the next phase of the show as the
episode count starts getting up it's a
biweekly show right now but we're
thinking about maybe going weekly as we
continue to talk to more and more
filmmakers so yeah get in touch I'd love
to hear from you love to hear what you
think of the show thanks for sticking
around and we will see you guys in two
weeks we will have Numa Perri a director
of the movie writer and director of the
movie Jezebel which have this world
premiere at South by Southwest this year
that was also a real fun conversation
look forward to sharing that with you
guys in a couple of weeks and we'll see
you guys then until then take care bye
bye