[Music]
greetings friends and welcome to today's
episode of head above water or a podcast
about filmmaking and mental health what
it takes to find a little bit of peace
and happiness in this crazy topsy-turvy
business called show welcome to episode
8 of head above water and this week's
episode is a Sundance special we're
gonna be talking with Ben Wiesner
producer of the movie beast beast which
had its world premiere at Sundance just
last week and still has two screenings
coming up this week so we'll put a link
in the show notes to the screenings at
Sundance so if you're listening to this
today this week this lubis released week
in Park City you have two more chances
to go see beast beast at the Sundance
Film Festival and hope that you do Ben
and I have a very interesting
conversation this week I met Ben
actually in Los Angeles just after the
2018 South by Southwest Film Festival
where his previous film Thunder Road won
the Grand Jury Prize and my film getting
over was in the documentary spotlight
category and while I was in Austin in
2018 I met director Starr producer Jim
Cummings
and producer Natalie Metzger and got to
know a little bit of their team and
became friends with Ben after we
returned to Los Angeles we have a real
interesting chat with men this week we
talked about the things I usually like
to talk to filmmakers about success and
failure and jealousy of other filmmakers
and just kind of wondering what your
place is in this independent film
community but Ben has a very interesting
perspective on it as someone who's taken
the next step up in his career and
worked on some bigger and better
pictures he's got a very interesting
perspective on the changing meanings of
success as your career continues and
helping to find a team not only to take
your own work to the next level but to
also help to really discover what it
means to be a better storyteller and I
just think he's got a very very special
unique perspective on the anxieties that
often beset filmmakers and
how he deals with those traps that can
arise that can take you down when you're
trying to produce your work so stay
tuned for our conversation with Ben two
really good chats also want to let you
guys know that this episode is again
brought to you by upstart film
collective it is my production company
we do post-production services editorial
services design services also if you're
an independent filmmaker and you're
going to be out on the festival circuit
this year and you need a DCP please feel
free to get in touch with me I also do
DCPS I did my own DCP
or getting over which premiered at South
by Southwest like I said in 2018 with
not a hitch on the DCP so I don't think
you need to go to a big studio or spend
a lot of money to do that if you need a
DCP or anything at all for your film as
you hit the festival circuit this year
please feel free to get in touch but
without further ado I want to get you
guys into this week's conversation with
Ben Wiesner and I'll have a couple more
things for you guys on the other side
but until then enjoy our conversation
with Ben
all right greetings welcome to head
above water we are I've always wanted to
do this by the way coming to you live
from The Vanishing angle studios in
beautiful downtown Atwater Village in
Los Angeles California we are here today
with Ben Wiesner producer of last year's
Grand Jury Prize winning film at South
by Southwest Thunder Road the upcoming
beast beast which will be premiering in
Sundance right that's right as well as
lots of other movies and we can get into
all of that fun stuff so Ben thank you
so much for joining me I really
appreciate it yeah I'm excited to be
here thank you for having me Jason
awesome so what I wanted to talk to you
I wanted to talk to you about so much
stuff today anything that you want the
audience to know about what you've
worked on in the past obviously I said
Thunder Road and you have bees bees
coming up and a couple of others so tell
me a little bit about how you got
started in in this wonderful business of
show yeah so I was living in New York
right after college basically and I was
running a literary press and I was
living with filmmakers and I was
actually driving truck for a couple
hundred dollars a day oh wow I Beyonce
music videos and that was been like AOL
Studios was doing a whole bunch of
really mediocre podcast II shows so I
was doing that and just really didn't
understand that I was working in film or
think of myself that way and working on
these little scripts with my roommates
and all of the sudden two and a half
years later when we finally got a couple
of thousand dollars together to finish
them up they started getting into places
like South by Southwest great and it was
my second trip down there was 2013 when
we went down with euphonium and I was
talking with Jim Cummings who ended up
doing Thunder Road but was producing
Danny Madden's work and I was trying to
figure out how to walk into these
meetings because I felt like just the
roommate of these people never did you
so you never really considered yourself
a filmmaker you never really wanted to
be a filmmaker yeah I wasn't really
thinking about it in terms of wanting or
lake that was actually what I was doing
them just spending 100
hours a week doing it at that point a
hundred hours I mean something like that
like driving truck yeah
driving truck full-time and doing all of
that but then it dawned on me at that
point that what I was doing was
producing I didn't know the word for
what was happening right so because
nobody I mean sometimes in school yeah
but like they don't say here's your
producing class intro to producing I
mean when I was in film school there was
no intro to producing class and that's
that's when we really came up with one
of our catchphrases is a producer should
be a verb and that's how I found out is
I bet I was a producer was I was doing
the action of it so what was your main
focus in school then if you if this was
not like your initial or was it and you
just didn't know what to call it at the
time I had a really good poetry degree
okay that was that was kind of my main
focus and just thinking about the
creative process in general and then you
just kind of met up with these guys in
college and said this might be something
worth pursuing I I really loved just
like the production aspect of it I had
grown up like pulling curtain for dance
shows my brother is basically a producer
for dance so I had done a lot of that
kind of behind the scenes work and I I
love that mentality in the feeling that
you get on on a set or in production so
that really appealed to me much more
than something more careerist that I
just liked spending my time on sets so
how do you view I mean obviously a
producer has a very important role in
the creative process and I think you
wrote euphonium right I helped pass a
bunch of drafts back and forth you guys
just all kind of fill in as necessary
and just kind of where all the creative
hats yeah more or less
well let me just ask you this then do
you have any interest you know as Jim
has gotten into directing and Danny and
all that do you have an interest in
spreading out into more writing and
directing possibly acting or you're just
like this is what I like to do I want
this to be my career perhaps more
writing and getting more involved in
that early stage part of the process but
in terms of directing like we have so
many great directors on our roster like
write as much as I feel really
passionate about the camerawork and
thing like that like I don't want to be
unset in thinking about what 35 lens
from this distance versus a 55 from a
little further back feels like well as
soon who's directed him see that doesn't
like I did never pick the lens you know
I most of the cameras I use have
built-in lenses because I can't usually
afford anything more than $500 a day
which is which is a great level of
product to like we've filmed so much of
our body of work over the years multiple
features with like just the Sony a7 and
like a couple of old film lenses the and
that's I mean it's made us yeah from
just Goodwill stores for sure 30 bucks
yeah so but you you you've never really
felt that need then to like I asked you
this because there's a private side to
one's career you know like whether or
whether you're a filmmaker or a teacher
like you go to school you learn how to
do something and then you go and do that
thing as your career but in our business
in the entertainment industry there's
this public side to it to where like
other people will be praising you for
your work or criticizing you for your
work sports figures have to go through
it as well but teachers don't usually
plumbers don't usually so I'm curious to
talk to you about as you felt your
career advance and grow how do you deal
with those external forces that are
constantly either bringing you up or
pulling you down and how do you find
your Center trying to deal with that you
know cuz as I feel my career move in
that same direction
I'm deeply attuned to how other people
deal with that kind of stuff well I
think a lot of it comes from at the
baseline you have to just not believe
them whatever they say about your work
it's really important to focus in on
what you and your team think you
achieved and trying to find the audience
that sees what you see with that and not
really paying as much attention to what
the critics are saying or what the
awards mean because they don't mean a
ton right but how do you do that is the
question in our
it's just so easy to get taken away by
that how do you separate the two how do
you stay grounded because one of them's
reality and one of them is myth and if
you're dealing with the myth of like
what makes people successful that this
award leads to this thing and then that
can happen I just don't feel like that's
how it works for people that we look
back and we try and describe the success
that somebody's had based on these
little mile markers of awards but in
reality it it takes just like dozens of
times of knocking down that door and I
think that when you have that kind of
sustainability that you were talking
about it comes from just the volume of
stuff that you're doing that it didn't
do very much for us for the Thunder Road
short to win it Sundance right and
people don't yeah I don't think people
they'll see that on the resume and think
that that's the key there they are
they're gonna you know that's opening
the door that's when he got into the
dark cave that's when we got all of the
secrets and that's when all this stuff
happened right but no we went right into
production on six more one shot short
films and it was working with those
cinematographers it was working with
production designer that we really loved
it was doing all of the stuff of team
building that was the first thing we
worked on with Natalie Metzger who's now
just like an incredibly valuable just
intrinsic part of our team sure but it
was that process of going through those
short films and even then like even
though those were successful even though
one of them did show at Sundance and
South by and the series itself had a
really neat run and it ended up with
film struck it hadn't up all of these
places that got us like say two inches
forward career-wise but it made us not
not two yards forward to India but but
it moved us so far along in terms of
where we were as a team right we were so
much better as filmmakers up and down
the roster because we went through that
process that's great and actually you
know that kind of reminds me of a saying
that I had heard there's this basketball
player on the Nets his name is Spencer
Dinwiddie and he was having like and
asked me anything on Twitter I don't
know a few months ago and this is
actually it's a it's a Bible quote and I
don't remember the the verse but he had
said something that iron sharpens iron
when you have you know your own
abilities and and something to bring to
the table and you get to work with other
incredible people that also have their
own special talents and something to
bring to the table it just kind of
elevates everybody's work to a different
place that you know on your own you
would never really be able to accomplish
you know even though you say it is two
inches it kind of goes back to you know
the reality versus the myth other people
see it and are motivated by it because
they see these two inches to you as like
leaps yeah we talked about it as top and
bottom teeth had they sharpen each other
sure but like Spencer Dinwiddie perfect
type of example of like that's a second
round pick he was cut a couple of times
and now he's he's gonna be an all-star
this year and it's because he had this
mentality of I'm not a finished product
right like he's somebody was continually
adding to his game taking advantage of
the people who were so talented around
him that could make him better and I
think that's so important like when
people see ok thunder rid the feature
wins the grand jury it set by Southwest
they think ok so they're right that
helps a film like beast beast get into
Sundance but in fact it was that night
we had a short film krysta mm-hmm that
beast beast is based off of in that film
won a couple of awards at South by
Southwest as well but we didn't
celebrate what we did is celebrate the
way our team does which is we went back
to the house we were all staying at and
we ran a Kickstarter we stayed all right
back to work that very night that night
we stayed up all night to launch a
Kickstarter to launch the Christa short
the next day and that's how we were able
to get into production as quickly as
possible on beast beast
it's great those awards were the 2
inches and then it's figuring out what
what you can do so you guys have kind of
come to that not maybe not the
realization but the decision or you know
whatever kind of word you want to put on
it
that the way to not let the myth side as
you say the myth side of our business
seep it's you know it's it's ugly face
into your head is to just keep making
things consistently constantly and when
you stay on that that the reality side
of it that that's what you guys use to
push all the other external forces all
that other stuff out of your head
yeah and that because it's what you can
control it's what you can work on to
actually be much better as a filmmaker
when that opportunity maybe does swoop
out of the air and pick you up and like
bring you to new heights
great but in Intel you have that moment
where somebody's out there offering you
30 million dollars to make a film and
you can do whatever you want with it
like really figuring 30 million movies I
know but but those are the things that
do end up in the Oscars and everything
like that even the smaller independent
stuff still has real money behind it
when it gets to that level sure so how
do you figure out what you're going to
do if you do have that opportunity and I
think it's just through this vicious
cycle of repetition working on yourself
working on your stories working on how
your films actually hit audiences and I
think really one of the things that's
helped us over the years is like the
amount of things that we've released in
the amount of times we've tried to
really get creative about finding
audiences has been a big part of that
success during sure well sure but like
uncut gems for instance everyone's
heaping so much praise on this picture
that on some level part of me is like
well I know I can do what they do when I
know I can't cuz they're you know
they're Josh and Benny and they deserve
all the accolades that they do get and
it's not their first feature and it's
not their first feature all two-pole
features in and i mean they're well over
ten years into their career as
directors but it just it gets very
frustrating at least as the word for me
when I just see so much praise being
heaped on things while I know that I'm
busting my ass so hard just to get
someone interested in one of my projects
and I like to do I'd like to do a lot of
my stuff you know not on my own per se
but I like to keep them small I don't
like to do you know bigger things my
movie getting over was you know a small
team of maybe seven people even though
you've said that you're able to separate
the reality in the myth is there ever a
little voice that sneaks into your head
that says hey don't you wish a 24 it
bought Thunder Road you know anything
that you said like that that can't just
accept and appreciate the successes that
you've had as part of the journey of
one's career I think if anybody else had
released Thunder Road even if it were a
bigger success it would have been less
meaningful to us the amount that we
learned from that process the amount of
people that we now know I was writing
back and forth with a programmer today
who's putting together stuff and they're
just like so excited to bring us back to
Winchester Virginia and I know all of
our films we can pack a hundred fifty
people into a theater in Winchester and
it's gonna feel like a family reunion
it's going to be a beautiful experience
in terms of the bigger picture of like
other people's successes versus your own
I look at somebody like the safty
brothers and like it's so cool I don't
want to sound like like good I'm
resentful because it doesn't resent it's
just when we try to break in and we'd
spend years trying to break in and again
like T's have been making movies for 10
years in small movies and they made a
lot of small stuff with the same type of
crew all of that like they they were
really building those muscles up so that
that feels like more like towards the
inspiration side I think it's important
to get off of other people's timelines
and in a certain way though I think
that's a
a service that we do to ourselves and I
think that's what helps you be able to
celebrate people like I look at our I
call it our draft class if like the
people who came in to the 25 new faces
of indie film in 2012 yeah I was gonna
ask ya cuz there's got to be some level
of now you have to live up to that and
the list is crazy it's like Ryan what
else was on there but then there's like
these amazing other filmmakers like
Terrance Nance and Desiree are Kevon and
Penny Lane and Patrick Wang who've just
been kind of constantly churning out all
this amazing work over and over and over
again and that's so inspiring that
knowing the journey of someone like
Desiree he's going through a web series
a first feature and then the second
feature really hits and has that
opportunity to get that shine at
Sundance where her first feature had
been but then to like win the Grand Jury
Prize there and to have these
differently opportunities and I know for
so many of us even as golden of the
situation as that feels like that's not
what it feels like to be in that
situation right you you still feel like
it's your taken away at any point like
you haven't gotten there's no sense of
security from that step right and that's
what I found when I when I speak to
other filmmakers about it too and you
know I said it's hard to separate and
not compare your journey to other
people's journey and then the one thing
that I really had never kind of realized
again as someone who had kind of been
working in post for 20 years and my
career was my job you know like I wasn't
like a filmmaker like I mean I had
little projects that I would shoot with
my friends and you know shoot on my own
or whatever and little experimental
things but the one thing that I all I
always thought that like happiness was
the destination if I do this this this
and this and then my movie gets
appreciated or accepted by you know a
distributor or a festival or whatever
then I will be happy and I think a lot
of young filmmakers against not to posit
my feelings on other people but I just I
get the sense from talking to other
young
filmmakers you know now that I'm more
involved in the community that it's
really hard for people to define success
on their own terms and and not by
comparing themselves to anyone else's
journey yet but then you're never gonna
be successful happy there's not enough
ever there if you continue to base it on
these external things we had in our
Organa office back in like 2011-2012 as
we're working on euphonium which is like
maybe three thousand dollars worth of
peanut butter and jelly but got to play
at South by Southwest and got to really
bring us into a new world and there were
two quotes back to the NBA podcast there
was an old jersey from Bill Russell and
underneath it put his quote successes is
the journey and that's somebody who won
nothing but championships won like 11
NBA championships won a couple of NCAA
Championships did nothing basically but
win but he's also known as the best team
player right in the sport or in more or
less any sport that his whole focus was
unlike practice being their consistency
doing this thing with this team that had
this incredible level of success in
large part because their best player
wasn't an asshole he could have been
shooting more he could have been doing
this that or the other thing more and
then the other quote is from portuguese
poet and it translates basically to
wanderer there is no path the path is
made by walking and those were kind of
the two things that were tenants going
all the way through this this is what
we're doing the next thirty years are
just going to be about figuring out how
to create a path and one of our focuses
has turned into now that we do have like
again that tiny measure of success right
we're not generally successful right
yeah
the safeties aren't jealous of us
but what that looking at the path has
been really trying to figure out a way
to make that sustainable for us to go
down but then also create a path forward
for more and more other filmmakers like
that's why we want to figure out what we
can do in terms of like fundraising
differently what we're doing with we
funder and crowd equity stuff is
something that we feel really
passionately can change how indie films
are financed in like basically a week we
were able to raise $350,000 for beta
test it's great and we wouldn't have
been able to do that if in a 24 had
picked up Thunder Road right sure we
were able to tell a very different story
and have it not rely on anybody else's
measures of success we could talk to
investors and say hey this is what we're
able to do with the film
we're fundraising what we would need to
do to put it out into theaters on our
own and it just takes away the power of
yes or no mm-hmm from a lot of these
different people it becomes those
conversations with distributors who we
have really good relationships with it
can be really about like is this a film
that we partner on it can be that can
change that can change
project-by-project doesn't necessarily
have to be we're gonna make movies for
you guys you know from now until the end
of time or we're not necessarily gonna
have to self distribute all the various
stuff right then you can really think
about and talk about what that
partnership looks like and what the
goals of that partnership are when we
know we can get ourselves into these
other places fewer we have the support
network that we've built that's great
well let me ask you a little bit then
about about the fundraising because
again that's also an intranet Saul ways
been a very big interest of mine and
I've said it on this show before and
I've spoken to a lot of young filmmakers
about Kickstarter and crowdfunding and
the state of crowdfunding today cuz when
I had my Kickstarter I had an IndieGoGo
too for my film but it was back in 2012
and 2015
even now at the end of 2019 going into
2020 the landscapes really changed
significantly for fundraising MNC dance
park is come roaring from almost out of
nowhere I don't even think I would do a
Kickstarter next time I think I would go
with seat and spark just cuz I like
their their focus on filmmakers and
things like that but you guys did a
whole different thing
the equity crowdfunding for for for beta
test and that's so so just give me a
quick rundown on exactly what that is
and how it's different from regular
crowdfunding because that's gonna I'm
gonna have a couple questions based off
of that so I kind of want the audience
to know exactly because it's kind of new
what what that kind of fundraising is
all about yeah so to give a little bit
of our journey with that as well like
we've been running Kickstarter since
2012 we probably have like a dozen of
them that involve didn't successfully
funded and that was such a great way for
us to really figure out how to tell the
story of ourselves alongside how to tell
the story of the film so people get
involved and motivated not only by the
project itself but by the team involved
in working with it right and a film like
beast beast I think was probably 30 or
40 percent financed not from the
Kickstarter but from people who had
given like $50 to Kickstarter's back to
2012 people who had come in gotten
interested in what we were doing at
these various all levels and five or six
projects in they're able to really help
bolster a budget so that's part of the
journey that we were already on with
that where beast beast we put together a
large chunk from these people who were
Kickstarter's and then we switched over
to crowd equity we had so basically for
instead of getting like a signed poster
for $100 you get a small chunk of the
film and we were really interested in
that because one of the things that we
basically get asked two questions all
the time from people its how do you fund
movies and how do you get your movie
scene mm-hm and so we've been really
working over the last several years
on what
be a non-traditional more reliable Pat
to do that rather than waiting on
somebody in New York or LA to say yes
right to either of those propositions
and so the crowd equity for I think we
had 370 different funders and they came
in from over 30 countries over 35 states
and those are all people who actually
own the film I had and I think that's a
neat advantage to it as well is that's
that's a free Street team like those
people all their own financial success
will be based on how much they can help
you guys pimp it out yeah and I and I
think it's attractive for people on the
outside to say well yeah but that's Jim
and so that's different mm-hmm but then
we're doing the same thing right now
we're two weeks into a campaign for film
see you then and we are basically right
at the edge of everything that we need
for production itself and now we're
getting to move into that level where
we're raising for post production we're
raising for the marketing spend and all
of those types of things but it's just a
much different feeling when you're
looking for a thousand dollars from
somebody that was our average was less
than a thousand dollars for the
investments for beta test as opposed to
like a twenty dollar Kickstarter and you
get maybe you get a blu-ray right maybe
you get a blu-ray but also like you're
gonna get that blu-ray like two and a
half years later right that's one of the
reasons why I wanted to ask you about
that because there is also you know
again not just the anxiety of being a
filmmaker but when you're crowdfunding
there is at least for me and a few
people that I've spoken to too there's a
pressure and that's why I'm really
curious about the equity crowdfunding
because if it's somebody that's giving
you guys 10 bucks for a Thunder Road
poster hey you'll be done with it when
you're done with it they're gonna get
their poster and that's what it is but
now you have actual investors it's one
of the reasons why I don't like
necessarily chasing down investors
because now now not only am i indebted
to you for the poster in the movie that
I
deliver but now I gotta get you some of
your money back - now you're gonna be
thinking that you're gonna make money on
this and we both know making money in
motion pictures is really the most
difficult part of all of it you know so
did you guys feel you personally your
gym or anybody else involved any kind of
additional pressure - now these people
are not only coming to you wanting to
see your next picture they're wanting a
return on their investment so now you're
playing with people's pocketbooks and
that's got to be a little extra weight
on your back as you guys are moving
forward with things do you have it I
think that's great for filmmakers like
you they don't mind the pressure you you
use it as fuel yeah
wellness and especially like it is
different when you're bringing somebody
along the journey is a non traditional
film investor like there's so much more
enthusiasm that you get back throughout
that process when you're showing them
like a minute and a half little clip six
months after production and they see
this thing come to life that they've
been supporting that feels really good
to them and they give that energy back
and it makes it a lot easier to go back
into the edit and keep making this film
better and better for those people so
you use it more as creative fuel rather
than like a debilitating weight on your
back that like you now have to deliver
something for somebody above and beyond
just the film itself now like you know
you haven't had anyone come to you and
be like you know when am I gonna get one
hundred twenty-five percent no one's
giving you money to make money is
basically my question or are there's got
to be a couple of people yeah yeah I
think there are people who are but also
like we're really trying to be
transparent about like how this happens
well honestly for our films a biggest
chunk of where we're going to be able to
make serious money is going to be
overseas and that's going to take a
little while that's not something that's
gonna be immediate even if a film does
get into Sundance that doesn't mean you
just get to shoot like there's still a
billion things that can go wrong with
your film from there
but that's why we try and figure out how
to have these partnerships in multiple
countries where we do have some ability
to really prove it you know great that
like there's this feeling I think from
some people that like oh the Thunder
Road release in France was like this
crazy success and like is that
repeatable but we had had a couple of
other that was like film five or six
that had been in theaters and France in
the last like three years from our
company most every one of them had done
at least 35,000 tickets and so this one
doubled that it wasn't like getting
there from nowhere right right and again
you already have that support yeah I
don't think that's what people see is is
all of that stuff that goes on behind
the scenes it's not doesn't take place
in a vacuum you don't just send out a
tweet that we sold tickets you know we
sold our picture to a territory you know
an international territory and like oh
well it's just that easy like you guys
were hustling it the whole time yeah and
almost every territory that we sold
Thunder Road in was a place that we had
a major festival premiering and that's
one of those things that people come to
us and they're looking for the key to
success and I think a lot of it is it's
just the same way with production where
pre-production is half of it sure of
that's how the films going to work is if
it's really thoroughly thought out and
that's gonna be the same with your
release we really felt strongly about
what our French numbers were going to be
able to be so we put all of our other
international premieres for the UK for
Greece for this country in that country
into a two-month window right behind
when we had our French numbers so it
became a lot easier for us to be selling
these territories because we had numbers
mm-hmm that was one of our carats we had
the proof that it was going to happen
and then we had a premiere so that they
could have a moment to really think
about and announce and it was like
putting as many of these little things
together
the same time and trying to have a
bigger conversation than a filmer our
size should've and that didn't happen
just from the luck of it it was really
put in that work to figure out what the
best strategy would be in that work on
multiple other films where we saw what
worked and it didn't work and you put
that this is what I think is a bit of
the disconnect and this is what really
interested me is the disconnect between
there are young indie filmmakers out
there that and it kind of goes back to
what you were saying about not having a
path because for me I've always likened
it to the 405 freeway you can take any
of those lanes but they'll still get you
to where you're going and I think a lot
of young indie filmmakers today kind of
think I need to direct a picture and
then somebody will see it and then
somebody will give me more money to go
direct another movie in the future and
that's certainly not my path and I'm
totally fine with that but I've met a
lot of people along the way that think
that that is the path and one of the
things that impresses me about what you
guys are doing you're and and and this
kind of mitigates all of the other
mental and emotional stresses and
anguish that a lot of new filmmakers put
themselves through is you guys are
handling it like a genuine studio you're
not just having a Kickstarter getting
your money making your picture and
you're building your all you're not just
building your MailChimp lists you're
treating the actual work as an actual
studio with an assembly-line mentality
and that kind of blocks out all that
other external garbage that would
usually enter someone's mind when they
think that the only way to be successful
is I need to direct a picture that gets
into Sundance if you can see that
success as being the work itself and
learning about how the business works
from that end that could be that could
be something that makes you know this
young director that might be out there
right now that's sitting at home feeling
down thinking that I need to direct a
movie to be successful well you can also
do all these other things learn
more about the business practice all of
those skills I'd get the sense from a
lot of folks that I've been talking to
that they see only one path to success
and that's when the anxiety starts to
seep in so when you guys do it the way
you guys have been doing it building not
just the projects themselves but
building this foundation as a company as
a team that can kind of serve as a bit
of a wall in between the myth of it and
the reality of it and I think that's
true and I think there's a lot of ways
to replicate that though of like
figuring out how to continually be
putting things out they don't all have
to be features right and it's doing a
podcast yeah doing a podcast doing being
really thoughtful on medium doing
whatever it is they I think I think
short films are so the mentality we
approached them with can be so
wrongheaded as a means to an end only
and that there's you're kind of like
stepping down to create a short things
like oh that's not what real filmmakers
write but I think just like it's also a
prevalent mentality you're right getting
to know your audience in that way I
think is so so helpful like first off if
it does have some of those successes
with film festivals those things do
matter later on when you're coming back
with features but even if it doesn't
learning how to get things online and to
people is really important we're
vanishing angle adjacent stuff probably
has like over 20 Vimeo staff pics at
this point and having that support and
that growing audience is a really
important thing but then it's also about
like not necessarily relying on just
that part of the infrastructure right we
had a short film called parent/teacher
which it's like a 18 minute hilarious
one one shot of this it's a teacher
melting down into parent-teacher
conference and didn't really have a name
festival play
didn't really we sent it to the
wonderful people of Vimeo and the people
that shorted the week and it just like
wasn't their flavor it wasn't as
cinematic as a lot of our other work
including other work from that serious
so they wanted to get behind the other
pieces but we really felt like well this
this should speak to people we think
that this is of a moment right now in
the American education system so we
decided to really figure out what to do
with it and we took like a 30-second
clip of it turned it into gif put that
on imager and the day it released we had
that going in that clip which had a lot
of the heart and a lot of the jokes and
a lot of the message of our short film
behind it that got over a couple million
views in the afternoon and in the week
that short film got 250,000 views from
this audience that had nothing to do
with Phil hmm they weren't watching it
because it was a short film it happened
to be a short film we went to a really
wonderful website board teacher and they
put it up and they got a whole bunch of
people really behind it because that's
who the film really was for right it's
for people who had these frustrations
personally knowing your audience and we
think of film in this way that it we
talked about it as like a language as
this thing but almost always be talked
about that for filmmakers as where we're
the only people who write get to speak
this language yeah exactly exactly but
the language is so important for that
person who sees it and then they can
share their frustration they can share
what they feel on a daily basis with
their partner with their friends with
their parents with whoever shrinking it
gives them a tool and I think the more
of these opportunities you take to
really recognize how people can use your
films what they mean to these audience
members I think it just makes your work
so much strong
because you're paying attention sure in
a much different way you're not just
paying attention to your voice you're
paying attention to what it means but
yeah I just think it helps just give
another skill in the tool makers toolbox
as well as again put up a little bit of
a wall from that outside myth area and
keeps you focused on your own task at
hand and what you're really trying to do
with one's own career in the business
and and it's how every other creative
approaches it right you don't go as a
stand-up comic and have the same exact
set in Omaha as you do in New York City
sure in if you're just sitting there and
you're just building these wraps up in
New York City you're going to have too
small of a view on what funny is hmm and
what works in your material I think it's
so important for people to go out there
and see their films with audiences all
over the country all over the world as
much as possible to really figure out
who who watches this stuff how do we get
to them and the idea that that's not
part of being an artist and that's not
part of what your job as a filmmaker is
I think that's one of the things that
really holds back independent film is
now that people aren't willing to do the
work but they look at what that work is
and they feel like it muddies something
mm-hmm like it's not what you should do
like that's a dirty artists I need to
like not necessarily focus on that
business aspect of it right to be an
auteur right but it's like well no
that's what being an auteur is is it's
it's knowing it's knowing what the
context you're putting this piece out
into is knowing what the culture around
it is knowing who it can speak to and
why it matters to them knowing what
their journey is it's about the audience
that's any storytellers job right yeah
great
well let me just ask you a couple of
personal couple of personal questions
and before I let go so one of the things
that you would said earlier on is
you guys are just really prolific right
now you're all about just turning around
you said we have like six pictures in
some you know some form of production
pre-production post-production what do
you personally do to decompress cuz
whether or not there's any external
pressures or stress or anxiety and
involved working on six pictures at one
time it's a lot still a lot of work and
that's got to be very exhausting for you
reading really helps for me that that's
some place where ever my brain feels
like it can get fuel back just to sit
and spend a couple hours reading a novel
or a book of poetry or anything like
that
I feel like I'm giving my brain
something to do I'm not just burning
down the same highways all the time
giving my self that opportunity to kind
of think through other people's eyes in
terms of other things I mean just I
think having people around you that she
really care about is a huge part of that
process I don't think we could be doing
the amount of work that we're doing
together if I didn't love my co-workers
if Jim and Danny and Natalie and Matt
and even like our production designers
been on like six or seven features and I
have slept in the same bedroom in like
four states in the last like year in a
house a very bonding experience yeah of
course yeah so it's it's those things
are so important to keep you ready to go
because you're not doing it for yourself
you're not doing it for your career
you're not doing it for these other
things you're doing it because you're in
it with these people who you want to
give your best to yeah do you then think
do you think you you would never produce
for other people or you know if a studio
came calling and said we want just you
Ben and we don't want Jim or Danny you
know we just want you to produce this
movie would you is that I mean obviously
we would you know depend on the project
but is it are you generally not looking
to do that with your career you like you
want to work with these guys from now
until forever I think we're we're
growing broader and broader of
so we have three features in
post-production with Jim and Danny
but then there's three films that IEP
Daz well in trying to get more and more
people into that realm where I can be
really helpful I can give whatever
expertise I do have and help give them
some of the steps down the path that we
have but yeah I'd love to work with
filmmakers that are just like it's this
opportunity to tell new and different
stories there's so many stories that are
really about what the director brings
and I want to be able to work with as
many different people as possible but
know if his studio comes to me with a
really mediocre idea a lot of money that
doesn't that doesn't matter very much
it's not a trade that I'm willing to
make we're very lucky in this business
to have the opportunity to work with
people that are like-minded and have
their perspective inform our work and
things like that and on some level is
money is great it's a career I want to
be able to support myself you want to be
able to support yourself but there is
something more worthy to attain yeah and
and I think that sort of love for it is
what what really informs the films and I
think it shows up on screen and I think
it is important to the end says and
money's very real I'm not I'm not saying
like we can make sense without it I mean
like yeah I can't give a blu-ray of my
movie to the lid you know I can't pay my
mortgage with blu-rays right and like
I'm wearing a TNT fireworks t-shirt and
I spent like two or three summers ago
spent three weeks making a pretty good
chunk of change selling fireworks in a
jungle parking lot you know and it
helped me to be able to focus on what I
needed to be doing like this is in that
wheelhouse of wind Thunder Road was
being made when all of these different
things were happening and it allowed me
to take these creative risks because I
had a chunk of change in my apartment
from something I was willing to do sure
because it was a three week time
commitment it wasn't something that took
the next nine
of my life and put me behind in a
situation where I was gonna miss out on
a project or two it was a really
important thing for me to be able to go
down to talk Austin and not earn very
much money for three months but figuring
out ways to do it so that opportunity
cost is as low as possible that when
you're selling yourself for your your
body your services like I just needed to
count change and like be able to lift
boxes basically and that's a sacrifice
you were willing to make because you
were having the freedom to pursue these
other you know these other opportunities
and they could be what they were because
everybody who was coming to them was
coming to them with such a level of love
for the project and such a level of
commitment entrapping his honor yeah
iron sharpens iron and yes there's going
to be a lot of points in your life that
you need money and been through that
yeah but but absolutely but it is
figuring out like how much time you're
giving up for that money because the
times not coming back that's true that's
great point all right well let me let me
wrap up with just one last question and
it sounds like you've answered it
already but would you say you're happy
are youare you happy doing what you're
doing
do you feel like well you kind of just
answered if you're you're missing out on
that but do you feel happy in general in
your life do you feel like you're
exactly where you want to be doing what
you want to be doing or am I happy yeah
I think and if not why well I think
happiness is such a result of
expectation that it isn't this ideal
that exists on its own but it was really
just a function of the way that we think
about ourselves how gentle we are with
ourselves what we put our value into so
I feel incredibly satisfied with the
what unable to be doing what I'm able to
be giving I feel like my brain and my
body are going to of really full use
right now but at the same time you you
can sit there and you can
well and all of the time that you don't
have the opportunities you missed out on
to just like relax or like right have a
family or this or that or the other
thing but yeah I think I'm happy because
I focus on what is in my hands and what
is around me and the people that I can
support and who can support me so I feel
very satisfied by all of that and god
you're gonna be so unhappy if you just
focus on everything that you do you
don't have any control over yeah and
that's I mean it's one of the things
that I struggle with on a daily basis
but realizing that the happiness comes
from the process I used to think that it
was a goal I honestly thought you know
when I was making getting over and we
got into South I I thought that that was
going to bring me happiness in my career
being in in post for twenty years and
always wanting to take that chance to
direct a picture a personal picture I'm
happy that I did that but at the time I
thought that that would be my entrance
into I would open the door and you walk
through it and you're in happy and and
and it really actually ended up sending
me into a depression for a year you know
I remember when I came here I think the
first time we ever had lunch
I was chock-full of ideas and just on
cloud nine and ready to go and then when
I would sit down at the computer and
won't have to start just really doing it
my heart wasn't there it just it really
in and and and it kind of set me back a
couple of steps cuz I had to not just
work on the projects themselves but
realize what do I really want from this
do I you know like and I don't
necessarily want to be a director I'd
like to do it again I'm planning on
doing it again so it really gave me the
opportunity being depressed gave me the
time and the opportunity to really
figure out what I wanted to do it's when
I have the idea to maybe pursue the
podcast and speak to other people
because I found a lot of other people
did feel the same way and I don't want
people to go on Twitter and think that
happiness is selling your movie to a 24
or happiness is being nominated for a
Spirit Award that that comes from that
process of working through things and
that happiness is not necessarily the
goal it is the journey so that's why I'm
really excited to hear your perspective
on everything that's why I'm real
excited you know to hear about what you
guys have on tap and that's why I'm I'm
also excited you know just again just
get different perspectives on people's
experiences in this business cuz yeah
more the more voices the better the the
inadequacies thing is there's it's so
coached in it's such a trap and it's so
easy to fall into that trap of course
every day you're going to fall into some
of those traps but the your you can't
have it all you don't get to have the
kid and the house in the career and that
this and that that and even if you did
you've feel like they don't have time
for any nice things or whatever it is I
think it's really important to just keep
focused on what it is you want to be
doing and put your time and your energy
and your thought into that I remember
being in high school and my mother
overheard me saying to somebody I wanted
to be a writer and she pulled me aside
later and she goes but you write two or
three hours a day why do you want to get
writers like why like you're you're
constantly writing and that was
something that really changed how I felt
about myself and how I looked at myself
that because I was doing the act that
made me into this thing to be a
filmmaker is to be spending the time
really making films the same way a
weightlifter is defined by the fact that
they go in and they lift weights you
can't just want to be where you have to
be de Rana but to go back and the final
thing I'd say
is it's sank into me in a different way
this thing this thing that we've come
back to a couple of times and successes
the journey that that night at South by
when we had three of the belt buckles
and it was this big moment for the
celebration
Joey Ali who's a wonderful director she
came up to me and give me a big hug and
said congratulations and asked like how
does it feel and my immediate response
was almost as good as being on set mm-hm
and that's the thing that was this the
kind of jarring thing that came out of
my mouth so it made that decision very
easy to stay up all night to run that
Kickstarter released way back on cities
I've wanted to be back on set and this
was the way that we could turned this
little two inches forward of success and
make it into an opportunity for
ourselves to be back on set to be
creating again and the film wouldn't be
at Sundance if we hadn't done it that
night and how many times have you been
on set since that night I'd say like 12
14 months out of the years
yeah yeah and that's where the happiness
comes from for you yeah but you feel
most at home that's where the purpose is
that's great that's great Ben thank you
so much for joining us on head above
water where we're just as independent
filmmakers you're juggling all these
things and man we are just trying to
keep our head above water and just
trying to make it work any way we can so
it's really good to hear your
perspective on things and I congratulate
you and your whole team on all your
success and all the success yet to come
and all the work that will take to get
there and again thanks for joining us
and hopefully we'll have you guys on
again real soon thank you so much for
having me Jason
and there you have it our conversation
with producer Ben Wiesner hope you guys
enjoyed our chat he does have a very
unique perspective on what it's like
being a producer and a filmmaker in the
entertainment industry so I hope you
guys enjoyed that
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thanks again for listening to head above
water this was our Sundance special with
Ben Wiesner love to hear your comments
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thanks a lot take care bye bye