[Music]
greetings friends and welcome to today's
episode of head above water this is your
host Jason Charnock it's March 26th 2020
sorry for the delay in getting a new
episode out to you guys I know it's been
pretty long time and a lots been going
on in the world since the last episode I
don't want to really spend too much time
on intro with you guys I don't really
have anything to promote don't worry
about the buy me a coffee don't worry
about supporting the show or anything
like that right now but I did have a few
interviews that have been stacking up
and
we're all stuck in our houses and we all
have a little bit of extra time on our
hands I kind of wanted to share some of
those with you so this week's episode is
a conversation with Mike peeler he's a
dear friend of mine he's an actor he's a
director writer and a producer as well
and this latest film is called Evie it's
about a child marriage with some links
in the show notes where you can check it
out and learn more I have a few like I
said I have a few interviews coming up
that I had previously recorded I've been
spending the time editing these things
for you guys and I'm going to get them
out to you on a pretty regular basis
over the next month or two so stick
around for that but like I said I don't
really have anything else I want to
self-promote right now or anything like
that but I wanted to give you guys a way
to pass the time I'll be back on the
other side to talk a little bit more
thanks a lot and without further ado
here's our interview with Mike people
all right we're here with Mike people
hey Mike how are you I'm great ever you
see you we have a nice live podcast
recording here today why don't we open
up why don't you tell me a little bit
about yourself what you're doing you're
an actor you're a director you're a
performer jack-of-all-trades what are
you working on right now what's going on
in the world - Mike paper
sure what's always going on in the world
of Mike people or is auditioning I will
definitely have to talk about that a
little bit yes it's I mean I I you know
acting is has been very good to me over
the years and I'm very grateful for all
of it and I continue to enjoy it that
said I'm very much trying to get out of
the acting business and replace it with
the directing business so get out of
acting entirely if I had my yeah if I
had my druthers all the druthers I'll
let you give me all the drums I need
yeah so if I had them you know the story
really goes like this I had spent my
entire life
pursuing acting since I was a little kid
in Houston first thing I ever did was
like a castle dental centres commercial
in Houston real famous at my junior high
and actually the very first thing I did
I was in second grade and I did this
school play of under the big top and I
was cast as the ringmaster and we had
two shows one was for all the kids and
the other was for all the parents and I
had I was the ringmaster so I had all of
the lines I introduced everything and
halfway through the show in front of the
entire school I forgot my line and I
panicked and I ran to the nurse's office
and I threw up and a teacher during the
shooting show like I bailed Wow and you
said this is what I want to do for the
rest of my life so here's the here's the
trippy yes so here's the thing so so and
I'm in second grade so the next night
the teacher director gives me a
laminated piece of paper with all my
lines and she says here take this
onstage that way you could get scared or
you know you have your lines with you so
little old me I don't know what
possessed me but I'm standing backstage
holding this piece of paper like it's
time for my entrance and I just
something came over me and I threw the
thing into the wings and I marched out
there without it and I did it and I did
the show and there's this old saying
that you spend your whole life either
running it was that night so she gave
you the card you're about to go back out
there and you're like you know what I
don't need this don't need this stupid
card I'm gonna do it without it even
though you ran off the stage and threw
up just like minutes earlier the day
before
so and there's this old saying about how
you spend your whole life either running
from or trying to conquer something
traumatic that happened in your youth so
that I it's interesting because that
experience and then I started getting
the acting bug and then so I pursued it
my whole life I got an undergraduate
degree in acting from Northwestern
University which is an incredible place
and I went straight from undergrad to
grad school and got an MFA in acting
from UCLA and then I immediately as soon
as I graduated there I started working
as an actor joined equity joined a
theatre started doing commercial sorry
new TV so acting as all I have ever done
in my entire life that is a long way
around the ball but what you really want
to do is drag God hate that I hate that
so much I did a couple of summer camp
plays where like like music man and
Oliver and where I was in the chorus but
I always wanted to be the guy out in
front and I honestly I look back now and
I think I've tried acting a couple of
times you know yes I've been you know in
this career and realized how getting
hard it really is but when I look back
and I look at the plays that I've been
in or the shows that I've been in Annie
and the fifth grade and I was bummed
those McCloskey or whatever and I think
that like if someone had said to me give
it a shot you could be good at this I
think I probably would have really
pursued that no interest as a career
yeah but nobody ever said and actually
the only time I can really you know it's
kind of a bit of an aside as we're just
getting into the conversation but the
only time I can ever really think that I
was kind of encouraged and it wasn't
even really encouraged but in fifth
grade we had our school production of
Annie mm-hmm I was bundled McCloskey but
my voice was changing and I was not
supposed to be Daddy Warbucks but I was
one of like the prime contenders for
sure and I mean that's a that's a juicy
role if you're an Emmy yeah man
yes the juicy roles the one you know
you're not gonna be any you're gonna be
Daddy Warbucks I wasn't gonna be Annie
yeah so I was you'd make a good a you
know I think it would make a great Annie
but my voice was changing and I guess
like you just don't want someone's voice
cracking in a musical and they're great
so like they just kind of put me like
you'll have a couple of lines as bundles
you'll be chorus and I just remember
thinking well nobody's really you know
saying go for it yeah so I kind of
let it slide yeah took a couple acting
classes in college I've acted before
when I just feel like I'm saying lines
and I know I suck at it but there were a
couple of times when I was in it in
college is that feeling yeah and you get
that where I'm just like well for like
an hour like we did speed-the-plow in
college and like man it is like is yeah
cuz you can get visceral yeah and I was
Bobby cold and I be honestly I fucking
nailed it yeah and I remember it like I
couldn't remember that's the best I
couldn't remember usually when I do act
like I'm saying my lines and I'm still
present as Who I am saying lines but
after that show just like wow is this
what it's like cuz that's not pretty
it's actually a very special feeling
totally that I don't think non-actors
understood see people playing and stuff
like that and I don't think non-actors
get that but I still never got the sense
from anyone that was like listen maybe
I'm not maybe I wasn't very good at it
but I never really got the sense from
anybody they're like hey you should try
this a little bit yeah and I just wish I
had gotten a little encouragement
because I feel like I might have been
good at it I'm gonna get the time
machine I know Jason if your bundles get
up there and give it your all and and
it's just I don't know it's just a
little aside about acting because I have
even though I have directed I've only
directed and live directed short
narrative films but I've never really
I've directed actors before and I
respect actors and love actors but when
you're in that moment and you're feeling
what it is all about for real even
though you're pretending like but you
get it you know you get that it just
gives you a whole different perspective
completely on on acting I think yeah I
mean my movie I was in my mood like I
despair myself as a non actor I had to
stare at myself non-stop all day every
day knowing that audiences of people are
gonna be what was that like to edit
after a while you do turn it around you
get numb to it absolutely being a post
you know a post production type of guy
like myself and you know and people have
asked me that all this cuz it's about my
family at some point like I just have
like it like it's still a piece of
recorded material that needs to you're
able to get that eventually that
objectivity eventually like I said and
I'm not like Adam driver I don't
much of a problem looking your life and
I think and it's weird too cuz as I
decided to start a podcast I think I
have an awful voice I think I have an
awful voice I think it sounds awful
recorded but when I watch my own I
listen them like when I've seen like and
I've acted in my own movies before too
and have sucked at it hard like look up
YouTube go online anatomy of a reveal
it's a little bonus feature of my short
I can't say a lie without just like
cracking up because of the cameras on me
like whatever but at some point yeah
you're just like well this is just a
file on a computer yeah and I need
because I've never wanted to do that the
people voice said who you want to be in
your movies have you ever been in any
you've never been in any my voice has
been in a couple of my movie interesting
but I've never appeared on camera and
any of my movies and part of that is
because I don't trust myself yet as a
director to step to have the confidence
to build a scene and then step away and
go shoot it like it's just and and it
also speaks to the fact that I you know
I think I prefer directing so it's like
I don't feel the need to put I'm not
using directing to make my acting career
better I'm actually using it to make my
directing career better do you regret
that you've that you didn't do this you
know shifting into directing share
because it sounds like you kind of not
that you regret being an actor because I
know how grateful you must like you said
you're grateful for being a professional
actor Lili to get paid I have health
parents from some skits from sad I mean
that's that's an amazing thing to hear
but you also sound like you kind of wish
you had done this a little bit I
definitely wish I had done this sooner I
definitely wish I'd done this sooner I
regret is such a loaded word because I
try and live without regret because you
know I am where I am and and I try and
look forward that said I do wish that I
had started sooner because they I'd be
better at it and be I do feel like oh
you know making this shit you know this
it's just such a weird business and and
age matters in a weird shoe in in in age
matters in every line of work but it
matters in a way that's show business
even if even behind the camera like
everybody wants to find the hot new
younger emerging during yes exactly and
an emerging director that's you know not
25
hey I'm not 45 take it easy close but no
it's it's it's just a different thing so
yes I wish I had begun earlier my
process is what it is and I am where I
am and all I can do is do you feel that
you got so I mean you said you year so
you're grateful for being a working at
totally but do you feel that you were
locked into this as a profession from it
being like maybe a little bit of early
success maybe God you think that you
were on a certain job and then maybe it
went down and that's not to say that the
direction you're down and going down is
not a successful one because it is but
maybe that you were kind of locked into
that once you started going in that
direction yes and and I will say and I I
carry no resentment III northwestern and
UCLA were both incredible programs and
taught me so much and helped me in my
career that said I wish and I think
they're better about it now and I
actually recently went back and spoke to
some acting students at Northwestern
about this I wish some professor had
cornered all of us or me or whatever and
said you need you must take it like Miss
put in the curriculum you must take a
screenwriting class to be an actor you
must because they make directors take
acting classes I wish I had taken a
screenwriting class or three
screenwriting classes or a filmmaking
class somebody looked at you and said
make your own content so when your so I
mean cuz like I said I took a couple of
acting classes in college but they were
acting for non-majors yeah you know just
like a fun little elective when you're
majoring in acting there's nothing that
says you need to see the other sides of
how they did they didn't it wasn't
required a well-rounded so it's
interesting because Northwestern's
education I mean they're they're not a
BFA program they are a bachelor I have a
Bachelor of Science in speech actually
is what I have so I actually I had to
take a bunch of class classes that's
what I liked that about Northwestern you
did get it very well yeah you got a
well-rounded education I took astronomy
and I took you know Greek philosophy and
I took Russian literature and I took
because you know in a BFA program you're
doing acting and dance and pretty much
everything tangential to immediately
tangential to acting force
so northwestern was was a real
well-rounded education but that
particular aspect of it and this is
where I think in the MFA particularly
UCLA I like I wish we had been forced to
create more of our own content and
create films and just learn that because
I was so scared of it that I just did I
didn't start right riding a write
screenplay and create stuff until way
too late in there not too late but much
later in the game yeah so let me go back
to something that you just said then
about being scared yeah you know just to
bring it back around you the point the
whole point of the show so you were were
you at the time in college you're acting
you're getting you know your education
you were just scared to go out and make
your own thing what we you know honestly
I think well we're talking about college
days or even now right so oh yeah
because in college days I mean I just
was busy and I had you know that's where
I say if it was part of the curriculum I
would have done it mm-hmm but once I was
out in my professional life I mean
honestly if I really if I really answer
it honestly I was probably just too lazy
at first because I did start having
success right away I started working at
an equity theater and I landed a couple
commercials and suddenly I had money in
the bank from acting and and I was in
actually was great I mean I was doing
fulfilling acting work working at this
theater doing Shakespeare every summer
and teaching and then I was getting
commercials and a little bit of TV work
and it was like hey I'm doing the thing
I've trained my whole life to do this
now this is it this is it here and then
and the trajectory will only go up from
here and so my motivation to do it there
at the beginning was low I just didn't
think I needed to mm-hmm and that was
still you know that was I still when I
was in grad school had a I didn't have a
cell phone yet so I mean it's we're
still prior to right anybody can make
content for no money at any time right
so there were still hurdles to doing it
so you really had to be motivated to do
it then and I wasn't motivated back then
and then as I kept working and stuff I
just kept it just kept not happening
because I just didn't feel the need for
it's like I'm doing what I want to do
I'm doing what I want to do and it was
only after time went by that I started
to feel like okay I'm not doing what I
want to do what else do I want to do and
that's right
so what do you think precipitated that
shift in your mind there's a particular
thing and then there's a sort of gradual
thing so the gradual thing is as my
acting career unfolded again
I'm very grateful to be a working actor
but at this point I kind of see you know
thing and things happen like you know
John Hamm was in his late 40s I think
before things really took off for him
like so what happens but I kind of feel
like you know and this feeling started
probably you know like ten years ago it
might mid-30s like hmm I haven't gotten
the big movie yet I haven't gotten the
land of the TV series yet what else is
gonna happen right what else is there so
that feeling that's a gradual feeling of
like mmm this the thing the trajectory I
thought it was on isn't it isn't going
quite where I hoped and well I'm
grateful for the fact that I work and
that I've you know I'm paying my bills
but you know I don't feel that
escalation happening that I was was
hoping would happen by now so that's
part of it I started directing theater
because I was you know involved with a
couple of theatre companies very heavily
and and it started with doing youth
drama camp so I was directing kids and I
was like oh this is fun and I think I'm
pretty good at this actually and then
that turned into like directing little
projects at this theater and then it
turned into directing bigger projects at
this theater and then another theater
down in Orange County I started
directing there and I became the
associate artistic director so that was
how directing started to get into my
vocabulary but the very specific thing
that happened and this is me being
genetically blessed so I have a great
dad and my dad has always supported my
being in the arts even though he has
nothing to do with the arts he's an
electrical engineer who grew up in you
know rural Kansas he's always supported
me being in the arts so he paid for me
to go to Northwestern like that's I
graduated with zero student debt because
you know he did that he now grad school
it wasn't an issue he was like you want
to go to grad school and you know get a
loan right for grad school
that said he's always come to see my
shows he's always been supportive of
what I've done in the arts and so he
came to see a play that I directed and
after that play
we were we were having a conversation
and he said you know I've always thought
you are very good actor but I think
you're supposed to be a director
supposed to be yeah
just interesting you yeah yeah just and
and and and it instantly for me I was
like you know I was thinking the same
I've been feeling that too and he said
well great well what does that mean like
what do you have to do and I said well
hey I'm not gonna be a theater director
because I'll never make any money and
they still want ya I wanna make a living
yeah I mean you could make it look as a
theater director in LA particularly is
like I'm in good luck yeah
so I said well I guess I need to make a
short film and see if I can do that and
know if you see if I want to do that if
I like doing that and then my dad he's
just such a business mind he said oh I
don't make it don't make it short film
you to make three short films you know
portfolio like you know I'll just make
one and I said well the guy that
wouldn't pay for grad school movie so I
said well that's great but uh I don't
know how I'm gonna pay for that he said
well here's what I'll do whatever money
you put in for your first projects I'll
match it Wow so then I was like oh okay
so that put pressure on there we go yeah
now it's now it's real it was a real
thing it put pressure on me because then
it was like oh put your money where your
mouth is and I had you know had some
savings and and so then I was like oh
damn and and because my dad is my dad so
it and I'll cut to an end thing that we
did which was me and my buddy who I'll
talk about in a second we've created
this production company to make our
things called upstart crow films so my
dad was like for my investment you're
gonna sell me 25% of your company all
right so he so he bought 25 percent of
our production company takes all got a
piece he's got a nice another spare it's
totally like it's so much better than
here's 25 you don't miss your giving you
my I don't ever want him to give I never
wanted to just ask him for money right
so suddenly I went so that was the deal
he offered and I said okay and then
suddenly I was like oh shit I have to
write something like I don't I've never
written a screenplay you didn't take us
right guys I never took a screenplay
class like what am I gonna do cuz I'm
not gonna let this opportunity go by and
so I went to my buddy mark Felner who's
very creative and I've been very close
with over the years and I've just always
had a great creative vibe with him and I
Boop said mark I got this opportunity to
make three short films
my dad's gonna match whatever money I
put in but I I don't have any scripts
and I think I need a writing partner
because I've never
this before and he was like sure let's
do it so we banged out like ten ideas
picked the best three ideas then we
wrote those three scripts and then
through a friend at a theater than a
play that I was directing I this guy
recommended me to this producer who
name's Tiffany gray and she's amazing
and Tiffany looked at our scripts and
said well for the amount of money you
have you can't do these three films you
could do two of the three and these two
are clearly better than this third one
which we all agreed with pretty easily
and so we had the money and we had the
producer and we shot two short films
simultaneously my first two directorial
projects were two short films it
spontaneous yeah we shot him we shot him
because you get economy of scale we shot
those first two short films back-to-back
over a five-day window we put them in
post at the same time we edited at the
same time we put them in the film
festival circuit at the same time so we
did so you're also good now you're
competing with yourself on the phone yes
yeah and both of them actually the first
and I've talked about this is a regret
so the first they both premiered
simultaneously they both got into the
cynic West Film Festival which isn't
that's a damn good path that's a that's
an Academy I didn't get how to be award
qualifying where is film shorts you bet
I had no idea what I was doing I didn't
know how to how to network at a film
festival I didn't know the value of this
particular film told you I so I fucking
blew that opportunity I am I was an
emerging filmmaker who had two short
films simultaneously screening at an
academy Roman people I've met over the
last year would smack you in the face
right now and I've been and I sort of
partied and I watched the movies and I I
had that bad I regret I could have
leveraged that I think way better than I
did
I could have networked so much more I
mean I remember the couple people that I
told with like yeah I've got two movies
here but we're all like what get two I
just didn't even realize it yeah that's
it see and that's interesting that you
say that too and and that I even say
what I said because then another one of
the things that interests me so much and
that I want to talk to people about is
how they define their own success and
failure so a lot of other filmmakers
indie filmmakers especially would look
at that as an extreme success that
you've gotten into to festivals and
you're thinking of it as not necessarily
as a failure but as a missed opportunity
totally so and it's both right it is a
success yeah and in fact in my bio how
long does that success really last you
get to keep it in your bio yeah for as
long as until something happens yeah but
yeah it was a total missed opportunity
to have I now know I can't point to
anything tangible and be like well I
missed that but I said something stupid
to that one guy that could have given me
but I now that I've done you know five
short films and the the sixth is in post
now I've done five short films and been
to a whole bunch of film festivals none
of which were as good as Cinna quest and
icepick good in quotes right but good in
terms of you know reputable that's the
only Academy Award qualifying Festival
I've ever been to was my first one with
those two movies so now that I've been
to a ton of them and networked at a ton
of them I real I just realize how I
could have maximized that opportunity
and didn't so let me ask you another
question of going back to what you said
earlier about when your father had
offered ya to help pay for these short
movies and I realized what a place of
privilege that is true I mean I don't I
I am so acutely aware that that afforded
me an opportunity that is incredibly
rare and gave me the chance to create
these first two things in a way that
most people never ever met so I'm so
grateful and so where of what a
privileged moment that is so you were
saying like when your dad said he would
help pay for it you immediately felt
pressure totally not only to create
something good but like you want to live
up to your father's expectations yeah
you wanna not blow this opportunity
because they keep supporting you and now
he's giving you straight cash yep and
you don't want to blow that yeah and and
by the way my own cash was the other
half right funding so it was my own
little savings pile and matched with his
so it was sort of double pressure just
like I'm sinking my money into this and
I'm his monies into this and you know it
definitely was a lot of pressure
when you made those first two movies and
your father had thrown in some and you
would thrown in some as well were you
already married at the time I was so how
did your wife react to like you're going
to do what with our money she's been
great she's been great about supporting
my my dream in this so I'm blessed in
that way too
and she's an actor too
right no no she's about as
multi-hyphenate as you know she has
acted that was actually where we met she
was also in the DGA
she she was a DJ a trainee and then it
was like a second second
you're jealous too she's also she also
has an MBA she all the letters
yeah she's got all the letters she's
worked in the education department at
the LA opera she's done a ton of
different stuff great yeah so anyway
support from all sides and as she ever
said anything like there's a limit to
this though like she ever said have you
ever had a conversation where she's like
listen I mean we can keep well I guess
but at some point we're done using my
house as a location but no in general
she's been very supportive which is very
very lucky can I tell you though one of
the things that appeals to me so much
about filmmaking that acting
particularly film and TV acting in the
manner in which I have done it which is
not number one on the call sheet it's so
collaborative it's so now maybe your doc
is probably a different feeling but
although but it's probably collaborative
- yeah very much but being that you
mentioned at the top about how a lot of
people want to be the director to be the
boss my favorite thing about directing
is having having an idea and a vision
and handing it over to really talented
people to a production designer to a
cinematographer to a set designer to a
sound designer to an editor handing it
over to people who are way better at
those things that I could ever hope to
be and seeing that vision come back
better than I could have ever imagined
it that to me that collaborate essence
of collaboration I feel oftentimes as a
director I feel like I'm the servant to
help all these talented people bring
their bring their best to whatever this
thing is and then you know sort of
stitching all those different things
together to make the thing but it to me
it's just the collaborative element of
it you know and then actor on a TV show
or film or you sit in your trailer for
hours at a time and then you go and you
do your thing and then you go to crafty
and you go back to your dream and it's
like it's so isolated and
and you maybe bond with the other actors
and maybe if you have a big part you get
to you know chat with the director or
some but I think if you're a series
regular on a TV show which I've never
been I'm sure that's a more
collaborative feeling because I see the
TV the series regulars when I work as a
guest star or whatever they still go
back to their trailer and they still go
to you know crafty and they still you
know it just isn't the collaborative
interpersonal L aspect of directing is
just so exciting to me
I love collaborating to I love it I mean
I've met so many talented people in 25
years in this business that I love
working with and want to work with again
in the future and again as somebody who
still feels a little bit of that
imposter syndrome the outsider syndrome
of like well I don't really belong here
join the club as we all do but I've oh
you know to have that opportunity to
work with such talented people excites
me
but I've always again and it goes back
to what I was saying about we spend a
lot of our own money and we we had a lot
of crowdfunding and if I'm not gonna put
my own money into it or if I am it's all
gonna be just a little bit of money
I gotta make what I can make just to
make it and if that means it's only
gonna cost a thousand dollars and I have
to direct do all the where all the house
edits finish make the DCP if I have to
do all that stuff myself I will and
you're right it will probably end up
looking not nearly as good as it would
is if I had gotten a group of people
behind it but like what you got it made
I got it made and sometimes it feels
like that's the only option clearly so
it's not like I don't want to
collaborate with people but sometimes I
kind of feel trapped telling like a lot
of other especially micro-budget
indie filmmakers feel that same way
because and that's also where I kind of
feel this missed opportunity like you
were saying like getting over wasn't
South by Southwest and I met all these
wonderful people directors filmmakers
producers funders financers and but none
of those people are giving me money now
did you go to South by Southwest with
something in your back pocket like news
every book that nobody nobody ever said
well what do you
what did it oh oh I've had a ton of
people what else do you have interesting
you know and that's when that's one
thing a lot of people have always said
well you have to have something in your
backpack and that's what I'm kind of
working on now is at least if nothing
gets made let me build a book of of
ideas yeah so I can be like I got this
yeah I got this I got a comedy I got a
drama
I got a documentary I got a short I got
a feature and then maybe something would
click yeah but nobody at any point was
like well what else do you have and
wonder if that's because you were in the
documentary space dog that and I think
because it was so micro-budget this is
one of the things I still to this day
don't understand the indie community so
South by they accepted me yeah they saw
the film's so and saw something special
in it talked about being grateful like
oh my talk about ostracism like what
it's the second I say the second just
because people know of Sundance I think
it's I think it's I think well I can
tell you not for short films it's it's
the most difficult vessel to get into
they had six thousand submissions over
40 short slots 20 of which are narrative
20 or Doc's so if you're trying to get a
narrative short into South by you have a
better chance getting into Harvard yeah
exactly so it's it's just it's just
bonkers that I was even there and then
I'm so I'm experiencing that and I think
and those because we were in the
spotlight and not the competition so we
were like not that it's you know
triple-a to the major leagues by any
means but it's a bit of a different
thing and the weirdest thing about the
whole experience to me was and I can
encapsulate it down to one single
experience our premiere world premiere
and we had the Q&A afterwards it was
like a 20 minute Q&A roaring applause
afterwards I felt like this like even
you're gonna launch this was it no not
that I felt like if I do nothing else
after this is it I just feel again
that's part of the like posture syndrome
nobody knows mine so that's also being
like present and grateful right
absolutely like this is this is the
absolute pinnacle of everything I ever
really wanted in this business yeah and
everything else is gravy
and I had one of the film buyers from
HBO documentaries come up to me on stage
okay and I'm from the Bronx New York and
the movie takes a lot of the movie takes
place
in the Bronx New York yeah and this guy
was from the Bronx New York okay so here
we are comes up on stage hands me his
card HBO documentaries he said like I
really enjoyed the film I just wanted to
come and say hello I'm from the Bronx I
really liked you know seeing the Bronx
on screen and I was like thank you so
much for coming out I really appreciate
it I'll talk to you soon
perfectly Pleasant yep you know 20 30
second conversation and in that moment
you're like yep this is it
no did it need to go they're gonna buy
my movie they're gonna and it's good
gold and they were actually already
following the movie on Twitter I don't
know who runs their social media but
they had like four years ago actually
met by now it's probably like six years
ago
they had something on social media that
was like if you respond to this comment
with something follow you like retweet
will follow your will follow yeah and so
I did it from the film account and so
HBO documentary still follows the film
account perfect so I had email before
the end of the festival I had sent him
an email saying hey it was great to meet
you
I look forward to talking to you soon
anything that I can get you it would be
my pleasure
never having him again Rick ever again
what did you write him that one email
and only I sent him that one email right
before the end of the festival was like
maybe three or four days after the
premiere yeah I had met him yeah and
then when I got back to LA weeks later I
sent another one I was it and that was
it never heard back from him again that
baffling and I what the hell laughing
and like listen I get it you're busy
things are going on you're at film
festivals you're seeing all this stuff
if you have no interest don't fuck with
me or or is don't say hello give me your
car or and I you know I've never been in
these positions so I'm sure when you're
on the other side it's a whole different
thing
totally but I know I've had interactions
with people where I've given them a card
and said hey we check out the thing and
then they'll actually respond and say
this isn't what I'm looking for right
which I have that plenty of people say
that great but at least they responded
at least what I'm saying is like HBO
guys should have at least written you
back and said hey enjoyed your movie but
it's not really for us yeah totally five
seconds out of your day and you know and
I know the limits of my film it cost 65
grand most of its shot on video most of
its hi-8 footage from 1997 it doesn't
look like you know it looks like but
that's part of the
thing of the film and that's and it is
and I love it for that yeah you know but
I get how it doesn't fit in with some of
the other dogs that they have and stuff
like that five seconds and right you
know and when we first got accepted I
was inundated by sales agents oh my all
these people can you send us a screener
and send him a screener and they'd be
like thanks it's not for us yeah pass
none of that ever got me down yeah not
hearing back that's that's the one gets
me - that's the one that makes you crazy
you don't know where you stand then by
the way that's one of the things that
just drives me crazy about the acting
business 90% of time you don't hear back
that's just what it is that's what
almost every audition is that's being an
actor we're already a sensitive
emotional Bunch and we've gotten into
and this is the whole point of the show
for me we've all were already a
sensitive Bunch
yeah and we're in this business that's
specifically geared to fuck with people
yeah and I don't like again that's a and
it's part of as part of the outsider
syndrome I feel like I can really have a
loud voice about it and almost be like
fuck you industry yeah well I think I
mean take a number I mean I think
everybody has it's not yet it's not a
unique point of view at all but it's
just yeah it's frustrating and it messes
with you and it gets you and it's one of
the reasons why I really haven't done
anything since and that's why I'm
excited to start the show cuz I wanted
to do something yeah for myself
yeah even if no one listens to this week
at least I'm doing it for for me yeah
and like and you can get your you know
Yaya's out saying stuff too and and all
of that but man what a what what have we
got you know yeah and but at the same
time yes and I have that I have this
every time I work as an actor on a set
I'm always I'm always like wow how can
anybody make like we make a living doing
this it just feels so sometimes so
superfluous and silly and like there's
people working on cancer cures and
there's teachers teaching my daughter
ma'am you know and it's like I'm gonna
go pretend to be somebody and make make
my living that way so with
all the BS it's like well maybe you
should have to put up with a certain
amount of BS because it's kind of BS
period you know what I'm saying does
that make sense because I mean movies
yes they can do positive good and they
can change the world and like
specifically our project has a social
justice component talk about the time we
try to do things that are changed the
world and do good but ultimately for
ninety-nine point seven percent of
movies out there or TV shows out there
the world is not meaningfully different
whether they ever existed or not right
and I never wanted to change the world
either like I don't I'm not looking to
change that world with my movies like
I'm just looking to do the things I like
to do who was it that said to me there
was a I think was a panel at a film
festival no it was a I wanna go all the
way down this rabbit hole I was very
lucky to do this this Warner Brothers
television directors workshop and the
this showrunner I'm not gonna say his
name but he was talking because this
sort of they they they would like to
talk in anonymity but it was talking to
us and he said you know the reason
there's so much bullshit hims business
he was telling a story about a
particular actor who I mean some of
these stories about these like number
one on the call sheet guys it's just
crazy right crazy it's like stuff you
like oh my god people act like that and
they do and he's like you know this
business most of the people that are in
this business are broken in some way
mm-hmm it's what draws them to this bit
right so it's no surprise he's the whole
point of the show we are really you know
right so stuffing some so it's no
surprise that a lot of them have a hard
time dealing with success or they have a
hard time dealing with failure or they
have a hard time being a decent human
being about or why they don't email you
back when they don't cuz they they're
the ones that are broke right so it's
it's important to us make me feel better
right know that because it is they that
this business pulls in people that are
inherently a little bit off and so we
have to not be surprised when the our
interactions with them are sometimes
maddening and impersonal and rude and it
doesn't excuse it right but but it's a
reason what's that forth agreement don't
take it personally right right before
getting over came out I was in post
still in post but like I was you know an
editor and a post supervisor from
years and years and years and that part
of the business was very much removed
for you because yeah after it's the most
so we would spend time and a lot of what
I did was promotional work so it was
like afterwards yep
that's the business part of them so so
where we can do stuff and not have to
worry about those trappings yep and now
that I've kind of dipped into the other
side and embedded myself into the side
the one thing and and and following not
just the indie world but the studio
world as well you know like I said like
I don't really necessarily want to
change the world with my movies if they
do that's great but I've just been
really I'm again maybe this is too hot
to take for radio but I just I'm not at
the end of my rope about it but boy we
really give people like us way too much
credit away too much but we treat
directors and actors in those top of the
Call Sheet guys as way more important Oh
in this world as they are and if that
doesn't fuck with their minds I mean why
he is such a it's such a hierarchical
and it's just frustrating not just cuz I
you know and again for me it's that
inner conflict of I want that so I want
that so bad but I don't want so bad
and I can't tell you how many times like
my my my mind gears kind of grind to a
halt because again like you had said
when you were transitioning from acting
into directing how you thought you
wanted to do this one thing mm-hmm and
then you realize wait a minute I want to
do this other thing yeah but in the same
vein it's like it gets your mind like
the fact that you were even a place
where you thought that that's where you
wanted to be yeah and realize that it
wasn't yeah like that drives me crazy
because I always thought I was going to
be a lawyer a lawyer and I always wanted
to be an editor and I specifically said
I don't want to be a director because I
don't want that for me and then you grow
up I mean listen life takes a I'm a
different person now than I was when I
was 20 F but you see how we treat these
creators these actors these edit these
these not even editors but these these
directors and we see how we treat them
in this takes in this country we don't
have royalty so instead we have
celebrity it's true right we it feels
like all of humanity since
beginning of time there's like we like
to worship people and putting people on
pedestals in some form or another the
Egyptians did a story in there and we
love to build them up we don't knock
them down so that story we're bringing
back that's our royalty our celebrity I
guess I mean and listen I'm not trying
to change the way the games played or
anything it's just again being more
finely tuned to to it yeah yeah then
ever but then you know just as a
consumer oh I like this movie I like
this actor seeing how the business
revolves around them just gets
frustrating yeah amen guess it's the
easiest way to so let's talk a little
bit about your latest project yeah and
then we'll wrap it up a little bit so
Evie short movie it's about child
marriage you just finished your tour on
the fest yeah we did it was fantastic we
did we screened at 14 film festivals
great which is really terrific how many
total do you say you applied to that's a
good question we submitted to about 70
70 Yocum so you know I'm told that's
actually a good batting average I got
into four out of not even four because
one of them was like one of those awards
that you kind of yeah
played it three film festivals yeah out
of like 50 yeah south yeah crazy I mean
I can't tell you how many rejection you
guys I got it said we recognized that
you were in a major film festival but no
not for us I mean it's it's you know
it's a huge success but I mean because
it's a movie with a message for me you
know what's exciting about that is how
many people we got this message you know
this story in front of because it's a
thing that I don't wanna go all the way
down the rabbit hole child marriage in
America but it's it's just a problem and
nobody knows exists you say child
marriage people go Pakistan or India or
you know and you go no actually I
removed about a merican girl and they're
like what so it was it's been great to
take that to other states and other
communities in and culturally different
places and see people react to that
story and then you know from a practical
standpoint this this short is you know
we shot nine pages of a feature script
so we have a feature script and part of
the process of getting this out into the
world and
festivals was networking and so as a
result we've got two producers who are
seriously looking at the feature script
one of them has given us two two sets of
rewrites this so she's really interested
like we've given her back a second
rewrite and she's gonna read that over
the break and then the other one is has
got the script and his sort of I want to
get to it pile because he I mean he was
very very excited by the thigh the short
film so the short serving as a proof of
concept for the feature and hopefully by
hook or by crook we will find a way to
finance this feature film and then that
then you can we can get this story in
front of a lot of trials because short
films obviously have a limited reach
sure so well and one of the things I
wanted to talk to you about regarding
that is so you've been involved with an
organization yes so what's the name of
that working chained at last and they
are so what's interesting is I I just
cold called them so we were doing
homework on child marriage this this
story I already had the idea yeah the
idea had come to me I heard of NPR piece
on the radio about a child bride who had
been married in Florida when she was 11
Wow yeah and well 11 is no longer legal
but it was one silly yes Florida yeah
well Florida everything's legal right
there are still 13 states that have no
minimum legal age so it is legal in some
places Florida has a minimum legal age
but it is an 18 so I heard this story
and I went what the hell that can't be
possible and start doing the homework
went to my writing partner mark and said
hey let's look at this for our next
script and then after we wrote the short
script and we were starting to think
about let's maybe we should crowdfund
this movie that was when it suddenly hit
me like this is not our story right
we're a couple of middle-aged white guys
this is a movie about teenage girls
being forced to marry I want I don't
feel comfortable yet and so I just in my
research I'd come across this
organization Unchained at last I cold
called them actually cold emailed them
and said hey I'm a filmmaker we were
interested in this topic we've written a
short film we're gonna do a crowdfund
would you be willing to look at this
script and just tell us like we quote
yeah this feels just real just
bullshitters this second age like guys
hiding what we think totally right I
mean we based this on like four
different stories that are real so we
weren't just coming out of nothing but
but still it's just like
you need that perspective you legit
so they were like yeah we'll read it and
so the executive director and founder of
the whole thing got on the phone with us
and I was so nervous for that phone call
that's that's really really what I
wanted to talk about oh my god I was
yeah because now like you're not just if
you hear a dog don't worry about it we
do dogs on the show okay so when when so
when you're talking to this organization
now like that that adds another layer of
pressure on it because you're always
making a short movie for you guys to
kind of get your career along you're now
making represent film you're
representing the organization your rep
really use the term try and change the
world so much and we're trying to change
something but you're trying to change
something and now you have that extra
layer of you we already have the
pressure of putting some of your own
money into something yep you have the
pressure of wanting to do right by your
dad and do right by your career and all
of that but now you have an extra layer
of pressure clearly to do right by this
organization yep so that phone call
scared the hell out of me and then she
was great she was like this feels
completely authentic this feels like
exactly the kind of stuff we deal with I
had we had some back-and-forth about
specifics on it they gave me a couple of
ideas and some notes but generally we
write on tracking it was after that like
okay I think we can crowdfund this I
feel comfortable asking other people to
put in money to do this so what we did
would the like I think that one of the
things I'm most proud of that we did
with this whole process was rather than
Kickstarter rather than seeding spark
rather than any gogo all of those you
end up forking over like six seven
percent of what you what you raise you
fork it over to them and but our
business but I wanted to give some of
this money to Unchained it last and I
financially was gonna work out to do a
there's actually an IRS rule you cannot
use those crowdfunding sites and promise
that you're gonna give a piece of that
money to a non-profit can't do it
there's some weird it's a weird sounds
ridiculous you cannot do it and if you
look in like season spark they tell you
that in their like somewhere in their
pitch stuff is like that if you want to
give 10% to cancer research into it
can't say you're gonna do that well I
guess because it's a year that they're
not a non-profit yeah seeing the spark
kickstart those are a for-profit
organization some weird thing
you can't do it so I was like damn what
are we gonna do so we just created our
own we built our own website we built
our own pace system we built our own
thing and we donated 5 percent of what
we raised to Unchained it's Chryst so
I'm super psyched that at the end of our
crowd fund we wrote them a check for
almost $1000 and so once we did that we
had our funds and then yes everything I
directed prior to that was there was the
pressure of just doing a good job and
then this was not only that but I wanted
to represent the organization well I
wanted to represent everybody who crowd
who contributed to the crowd fund and
also people that contribute to the crowd
fund they were probably four or five
victims of child marriage you know who
wrote everybody who donated I'd reach
out to personally thank them absolutely
and people's whose name I didn't know
I'd say how did you find us and there
were like four or five they were like I
cuz Unchained at last was echoing our
tweets and our whatever and and they
said you know I I was married when I was
fourteen and would tell me their story
and and they were like four or five of
those and so I felt this tremendous
pressure for them to to represent
everyone well it definitely had a
different feeling because of that do you
feel like you did right by them I do do
you feel any do you feel that you could
have done better
do you not a missed opportunity I don't
like with the resources we had I feel
like we maximized I mean are there
mistakes as a filmmaker I look at go
home could have done it yeah that always
but I really feel like we maximized we
got every dollars worth we got so much
bang for our buck we got so many things
contributed to this movie and people
contributing and I'm really really proud
of what we were able to accomplish and
it's because of the incredible people we
got to work on the project the next step
for you is to make this into a feed
you've gotta make this feature film in
the future film you know our model for
the feature of like best-case scenario
is get out you know get out some movie
about racism that's not a movie about
racism right so it's it's this thriller
that has this story about racism woven
into what the story is and this is the
same with the feature film version of
Evie Evie the feature film because the
short really is it it's a movie about
this girl like finding out she's being
forced to marry it's a child marriage
movie it's like nobody wants to watch
into a full feature length PSA right so
the feature is a thriller about this
girl Evie
who's trying to escape this this
religious cult where she's been raised
and the child marriage is a thing that
happens in the course of the film so
yeah we want to do that in the meantime
we have another short that we're almost
finished with post-production on that is
just a totally completely different it's
a seven-minute one take action comedy
with stunts awesome what's the name of
that foreclosure foreclosure well yeah
when's that gonna be ready we are almost
done we've got we've got to build a
credit sequence and we got to just tweak
some sound design and the final composer
little pieces you know it's 90 95
percent of the way so it'll be on the
film festival circuit hopefully in 2020
that's great yeah it's really fun
awesome so let's wrap up my ask you are
you happy with where you are right now
are you happy with your whole boy I just
cuz nobody and I've said this to other
people too very few people they ask you
what I could ask you what's next what's
next to Michael yeah yeah it's not that
I don't care about what's next but I
care if you're happy yeah you know like
I said we're all like you said we're all
very broken in sort of way to get in
this business in the first place
so it's really important to me that
other filmmakers not that you're you
know maybe you are emerging but when I
speak to younger filmmakers yes yeah
like I want them to like know that like
that's you know listen paying your rent
is also good too
but being happy is really you know I
have a you know I I have a macro and a
micro answer to that in in the macro
sense I am aware I have a I have a house
over my head I have my health I have a
healthy beautiful smart daughter I've
got you know a great family I've got a
lot of things that I'm grateful and
happy about on a daily basis in terms of
like this is a filmmaker podcast so in
terms of that I'm very very not
dissatisfied but I have a great sense of
that I have not achieved my potential
that I have so much more that I want to
do and this is such a business of
comparison so there's just always they
did that oh my god like a won an Emmy
like I know that into 14 festivals right
so it right so it is a business that
breeds dissatisfaction you I want to try
to do something about that I don't know
how maybe this is not like maybe it is
maybe it isn't nobody that's got a
change no matter what you've done
there's always it like so for me what I
the the hill I'm trying to climb that
like in the most immediate sense is I
want a paycheck as a filmmaker I want to
stop writing checks to make the thing
right I want someone to write me a check
to direct a thing that is my goal that
to me and I'm sure as soon as that
happens I'll go well but what I really
want to do is I mean yeah maybe we'll
always be chasing it but at some point
like I just I've met people that don't
appreciate what they have yeah I'm happy
on that sort of day-to-day basis I am
unhappy with the fact that I'm feel like
I'm struggling so hard to find that
first paycheck as a director that makes
me unhappy but you know I'm happy in the
work and I'm happy in in a bigger sort
of spiritual sense I'm happy in the
chase happiness is not that's what I'm
that's what I'm realizing is I used to
think this before and speaking to so
many more filmmakers I've changed my
point of view I used to think happiness
was the goal mm-hmm like I will do these
things and then and then I will be happy
and then happiness will stay there
forever
no like happiness is the chase it is the
journey it is realizing and being
grateful for what you have yeah and
knowing that the door isn't closed yet
there's a long way to go yeah there's a
lot of work left to create and a lot of
stuff left to do and people to work with
and things things that we can still
accomplish and the happiness comes in
being grateful for what you have and
knowing that the journey isn't
necessarily over yet yeah I think of so
many examples of people who appear to be
on the top of the pyramid who are
unhappy I mean the one that strikes me
always I mean I think about him all the
time because he was one of my favorite
actors was Philip Seymour Hoffman mm-hmm
I mean that guy had everything he had
everything and and he speaks to me too
as you know from from his yeah because
look when I was he passed away when we
were making getting over and it really
like learning about his demons yeah
really struck me because again it's like
someone who's act in a lot of Paul
Thomas Anderson films yeah yeah yeah I
mean his performance in Boogie Nights is
quite transcendent one of you one of the
greatest performances I've ever seen I
agreed screen I completely and to think
that he had these demons and again like
when he passed away and seeing his he
passed away like blocks from where my
mother passed away uh you know like in
in the village area and all that so when
I started hearing about I I likened him
to my father a lot because people do
drugs like that because they have a huge
they're broken cuz they're broken they
have a huge hole in their hearts that
they can't fill the whole thing with
anything but numbness yep and drugs yeah
and I can't tell you how many times
hearing my father and these interviews
be like you know just like it's just
easier sometimes yeah I know the dangers
of feeling that you're not all there and
it's just easier to just not to check
out yeah and then yeah you see someone
that has all all of the riches
everything got your feet Oscar well yeah
still have a hole in your heart so big
that he couldn't fill it with anything
but numbness so that that's my reminder
like I take that as like there is no
there it's gonna hand you a price right
I still struggle with that every day
but you think happiness is the glowing
it that thing that thing and the other
thing then I'll be happy and it's really
it's got to be in your suitcase and you
got to be carrying it with you mm-hmm
and let that let that inform the work
yep that has to inform the work and as
you go on like you said you maybe you
wish you had gotten into directing a
little bit earlier now that all of these
experiences will inform your work
totally and then the work will only get
better because of it that's the hope
Mike people are hey thank you so much
for joining me on head above water my
pleasure
I loved it we'll have to have you back
on sometime sure and yeah thanks well
we'll talk to you soon we'll see you up
on this well maybe you won't see up on
the screen but we'll see you I in the
director's chair at least awesome
awesome thanks for joining us yeah all
right
[Music]
so there you have it our conversation
with Mike paper be back in about a week
with another one I have a few of these I
have six interviews stacked up I might
be speaking to a couple of people
zooom calls are a pretty hot thing right
now so I might have a couple more coming
up for you but I wanted to give you guys
a little way to pass the time
give you something to listen to the next
six episodes were all recorded before
the situation at hand so we didn't
discuss any of that stuff at all so
hopefully it'll be a nice little
distraction from what's going on thanks
for joining us guys I really appreciate
it and love you all please stay safe and
we'll see you next week thanks a lot
you should take
[Music]
you